Hi Jody! Thanks for this. I have so many questions now I don't know where to start. I will start with the last. Are you saying DNA plays no role whatsoever in genealogy, based on "I know nothing about DNA research"?? Please, please tell me I misunderstood you?? In regard to DNA connections with cousins who have found each other, wow, that happens constantly. Start with National Geographic DNA Project or how about Ancestry.com who have a whole new project for DNA analysis....just to name 2. Luck you, gotta go. I will finish later. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com>; <"'mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net'"@mail.rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I fully agree with Nick . . . "Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history." Who among us could disagree with that. Nick (who is one of the DVHH Senior Editors) wrote "The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity." This is absolutely true and the basis of the DVHH mission. Nick is a very factual person and for the sake of the DVHH publications, it has been to our favor. Karen, if you have DS blood running through your veins - you belong on this list. You wrote: " You have completely misunderstood my messages " This is easy to do in emails and postings. Happens to me all the time, but don't let it disdain you from continued participation. We're not in the business of running folks off, the DVHH would not be where it is today, if that were the case. I believe history is in the making, even as we speak/post. We must be mindful of those reading our postings, new researchers could be very impressionable and therefore it's helpful to follow the below mail list guidelines that were updated early 2013 which includes "Cite Sources Rule: for Historical Events & Data": 1: Accuracy is important and sources are vital. We insist that messages regarding historical events or data be supported by solid references. If your statements (or information) are speculation, then label them as such. Ancestor lists are worthless if the information is wrong. When providing lookup information, please provide the book information: title, author, and date. If your information comes from a website, provide the title of the page, author and the URL address. Web addresses change, so this information is as necessary as it would be for a book. 2: The above new "Citing Sources Rule" is being implemented to thwart the posting of erroneous historical information which, usually and rightfully so, generates a correction response. Often the original poster is offended and wants to start an open or private debate, see flaming below as to how this is to be handled. http://www.dvhh.org/community/mail-list.htm Nobody can say that there were NO mixed ethnic marriages among the DS. Personally there were none in my family until immigrating to the US. I've heard "Native-Tongue" mentioned. My Grandmother spoke German, her "Mother Tongue" - NOT "Native Tongue" - big difference. I can also appreciate this not-boring discussion; and certainly welcome any comments of personal experience, hopefully based on facts and not assumptions. (Not saying that you did that Karen) Therefore, this topic may very well call for a study including polling researchers on the mixed ethnic marriages among their Danube Swabian roots, to include dates, what ethnic groups; what villages and in what regions. This would certainly present factual evidence for your position, of which I would personally support your endeavor if you so choose to do this. I know nothing about the DNA research, so I cannot comment on it at all, except to say, I know of NO ONE who has literally connected with a live cousin whereby they can trace the connection to each other in records. It would be cool to know if any lister has been successful in that. Best Regards, Jody McKim Pharr DVHH Publisher -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nick Tullius Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: 3-May-14 15:42 To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Nick! Wow, My apologies Nick! You have completely misunderstood my messages. I was not, am not "discussing" race. I was differentiating between DNA as a race definition in specifically determined analysis, and Nationality/and/or Citizenship which is geographic and historical and has nothing to do with genes. Anything I have said is NOT about "saving anyone from being German"! Why would I malign myself? As we say here, I are One. :) I apologize again if I try your patience or the "regular readers of this List" by posting on this list. That is certainly not my intention. I am just "Discussing". No one need agree with me, find any validity in what I have to say, or even read me. I thought dialogue was the point here. Your history is completely accurate and I am aware of it, as far as it goes. So I guess that begs the question....Are you telling me that I am not part of this community called Donauschwaben? Are you and the "well-established facts" telling me I do not belong on this list or in this community if I don't fit all of your list of "facts"? I would suggest we all find a way to include here because if there are those who object to inquiry and discovery on DVHH then it isn't where I will spend my time going forward, which I guess would be a good thing from your perspective Nick. 1. In the "well-established" history of the specific 3 waves of Settlers, the answer to #1. is Yes. 2. I do not doubt that wherever you are your neighbors and other nationalities use the word Swabian as part of their language over time. Where I am, and certainly evidenced by this list, very few immigrants to Canada, the US and other places mentioned, were aware of, or considered themselves "Swabians". I have volumes of letters from my Grandmother's siblings and not one time in any letter is the word Swabian used, mentioned or referred to. That is antidotal, but based on the List chatter I would say it is not unique! It seems to me it would be interesting to do some study of that phenomenon for this List. And also, not mentioning it does not mean by me that it is something to be ashamed of. None of that is the point here, and no one is trying to malign anyone else. We are just asking WHY?? 3. Two answers....1. is Yes! 2. The dialects arrived in the Banat, and then they were enhanced and changed again by influences in the Villages from the new environment of people and from intermarriage and integration. 4. Okay, in the towns and villages that were majority DS.....they then were majority German speaking of whatever dialect they used. How about the towns and villages where the DS were not majority, color coded vividly by the DVHH map? Several branches of my family lived in one village and worked in another, lived in villages that were majority Serb, and converted from Catholicism to Lutherans for about 20 years in order to conduct business with Serbs, Croats and Russians in their vicinity as it worked out better for business? And they intermarried. But they considered themselves "Banaters" through and through. 5. Yes.....so isn't that what I described....what am I missing? 6. "Well-established" facts are universal, but your number 6 is not that. In your "opinion" what you state in number 6 is so. I for one would disagree with your opinion on that. Inside each of those homes where mixed families occurred, all the influences of the mixing was indeed passed on to the children of that mixture and the next generation were in fact "different" from the previous. That my friend is well-established Sociology. Perhaps in your village or town outside of those homes you or others were not aware of changes. From a scholarly perspective traditions were sacrosanct, but from a sociologic perspective everything was in upheaval going into the 20th century and change was the order of the day. The participants on this List evidence the change, not the constant traditional you describe. I expected all you describe to be so when I got into this. But as I researched and discovered and then began to really read this List, I began to realize that of course there is no purism. Everything and everyone are always nuanced. And considering the history of the region, frankly it is a wonder any traditions were saved. I salute you Nick and everyone else living through all that to actually come out the other end in one piece. Hope I haven't bored you again. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Karen, No, I didn't mean that DNA research is not valuable; - I just don't know anything about it to join in a discussion. But I've been interested in reading the post and can certainly see it playing a role in the future of genealogy, if not already apparently. I just don't "personally" know of anyone on the list who has made an actual connection to a real-time cousin via a DNA sample. The only cousin connections I know of were made via DVHH are here: http://www.dvhh.org/community/connections.htm Jody -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:52 PM To: Jody McKim Pharr; 'Nick Tullius'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; "'mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net'"@mail.rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Jody! Thanks for this. I have so many questions now I don't know where to start. I will start with the last. Are you saying DNA plays no role whatsoever in genealogy, based on "I know nothing about DNA research"?? Please, please tell me I misunderstood you?? In regard to DNA connections with cousins who have found each other, wow, that happens constantly. Start with National Geographic DNA Project or how about Ancestry.com who have a whole new project for DNA analysis....just to name 2. Luck you, gotta go. I will finish later. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com>; <"'mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net'"@mail.rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I fully agree with Nick . . . "Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history." Who among us could disagree with that. Nick (who is one of the DVHH Senior Editors) wrote "The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity." This is absolutely true and the basis of the DVHH mission. Nick is a very factual person and for the sake of the DVHH publications, it has been to our favor. Karen, if you have DS blood running through your veins - you belong on this list. You wrote: " You have completely misunderstood my messages " This is easy to do in emails and postings. Happens to me all the time, but don't let it disdain you from continued participation. We're not in the business of running folks off, the DVHH would not be where it is today, if that were the case. I believe history is in the making, even as we speak/post. We must be mindful of those reading our postings, new researchers could be very impressionable and therefore it's helpful to follow the below mail list guidelines that were updated early 2013 which includes "Cite Sources Rule: for Historical Events & Data": 1: Accuracy is important and sources are vital. We insist that messages regarding historical events or data be supported by solid references. If your statements (or information) are speculation, then label them as such. Ancestor lists are worthless if the information is wrong. When providing lookup information, please provide the book information: title, author, and date. If your information comes from a website, provide the title of the page, author and the URL address. Web addresses change, so this information is as necessary as it would be for a book. 2: The above new "Citing Sources Rule" is being implemented to thwart the posting of erroneous historical information which, usually and rightfully so, generates a correction response. Often the original poster is offended and wants to start an open or private debate, see flaming below as to how this is to be handled. http://www.dvhh.org/community/mail-list.htm Nobody can say that there were NO mixed ethnic marriages among the DS. Personally there were none in my family until immigrating to the US. I've heard "Native-Tongue" mentioned. My Grandmother spoke German, her "Mother Tongue" - NOT "Native Tongue" - big difference. I can also appreciate this not-boring discussion; and certainly welcome any comments of personal experience, hopefully based on facts and not assumptions. (Not saying that you did that Karen) Therefore, this topic may very well call for a study including polling researchers on the mixed ethnic marriages among their Danube Swabian roots, to include dates, what ethnic groups; what villages and in what regions. This would certainly present factual evidence for your position, of which I would personally support your endeavor if you so choose to do this. I know nothing about the DNA research, so I cannot comment on it at all, except to say, I know of NO ONE who has literally connected with a live cousin whereby they can trace the connection to each other in records. It would be cool to know if any lister has been successful in that. Best Regards, Jody McKim Pharr DVHH Publisher -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nick Tullius Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: 3-May-14 15:42 To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Nick! Wow, My apologies Nick! You have completely misunderstood my messages. I was not, am not "discussing" race. I was differentiating between DNA as a race definition in specifically determined analysis, and Nationality/and/or Citizenship which is geographic and historical and has nothing to do with genes. Anything I have said is NOT about "saving anyone from being German"! Why would I malign myself? As we say here, I are One. :) I apologize again if I try your patience or the "regular readers of this List" by posting on this list. That is certainly not my intention. I am just "Discussing". No one need agree with me, find any validity in what I have to say, or even read me. I thought dialogue was the point here. Your history is completely accurate and I am aware of it, as far as it goes. So I guess that begs the question....Are you telling me that I am not part of this community called Donauschwaben? Are you and the "well-established facts" telling me I do not belong on this list or in this community if I don't fit all of your list of "facts"? I would suggest we all find a way to include here because if there are those who object to inquiry and discovery on DVHH then it isn't where I will spend my time going forward, which I guess would be a good thing from your perspective Nick. 1. In the "well-established" history of the specific 3 waves of Settlers, the answer to #1. is Yes. 2. I do not doubt that wherever you are your neighbors and other nationalities use the word Swabian as part of their language over time. Where I am, and certainly evidenced by this list, very few immigrants to Canada, the US and other places mentioned, were aware of, or considered themselves "Swabians". I have volumes of letters from my Grandmother's siblings and not one time in any letter is the word Swabian used, mentioned or referred to. That is antidotal, but based on the List chatter I would say it is not unique! It seems to me it would be interesting to do some study of that phenomenon for this List. And also, not mentioning it does not mean by me that it is something to be ashamed of. None of that is the point here, and no one is trying to malign anyone else. We are just asking WHY?? 3. Two answers....1. is Yes! 2. The dialects arrived in the Banat, and then they were enhanced and changed again by influences in the Villages from the new environment of people and from intermarriage and integration. 4. Okay, in the towns and villages that were majority DS.....they then were majority German speaking of whatever dialect they used. How about the towns and villages where the DS were not majority, color coded vividly by the DVHH map? Several branches of my family lived in one village and worked in another, lived in villages that were majority Serb, and converted from Catholicism to Lutherans for about 20 years in order to conduct business with Serbs, Croats and Russians in their vicinity as it worked out better for business? And they intermarried. But they considered themselves "Banaters" through and through. 5. Yes.....so isn't that what I described....what am I missing? 6. "Well-established" facts are universal, but your number 6 is not that. In your "opinion" what you state in number 6 is so. I for one would disagree with your opinion on that. Inside each of those homes where mixed families occurred, all the influences of the mixing was indeed passed on to the children of that mixture and the next generation were in fact "different" from the previous. That my friend is well-established Sociology. Perhaps in your village or town outside of those homes you or others were not aware of changes. From a scholarly perspective traditions were sacrosanct, but from a sociologic perspective everything was in upheaval going into the 20th century and change was the order of the day. The participants on this List evidence the change, not the constant traditional you describe. I expected all you describe to be so when I got into this. But as I researched and discovered and then began to really read this List, I began to realize that of course there is no purism. Everything and everyone are always nuanced. And considering the history of the region, frankly it is a wonder any traditions were saved. I salute you Nick and everyone else living through all that to actually come out the other end in one piece. Hope I haven't bored you again. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message