Hi Dan, I think I can answer your question. Basically the Austrian-Hungarian Empire had (as the name say) Austria and Hungary as the rulers and the other regions like Bohemia (now Czech Rep) or Transylvania (now Romania) for example were under either Austria or Hungary. The Batschka was part of the Hungarian portion so they were after all Hungarian citizens. If you check this map it's easier to understand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dissolution_of_Austria-Hungary.png There you have what was under Austria and Hungary and then the division of the territories after the WWI when the all Empire colapsed. My ancestors were also German-Hungarians from Vezsprem (now Hungary). And in few documents they declared themselves Hungarians and in others Austrians, but the same as your ancestors, they kept their German culture. I hope it helps :) Regards, Roger Altnetter > From: ajwdcw@windstream.net > To: Donauschwaben-Villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 20:40:15 -0400 > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians > > So, I have a question. I have ancestry that came to the USA before and after > WWI and they declared themselves to be Hungarian, even though they were of > German heritage. Before the war their town, in the Batschka, was part of the > Austria-Hungarian Empire. After the war they were part of Yugoslavia. So why > did they see themselves as being Hungarian, as opposed to Austro-Hungarian > and Yugoslavian? > Dan Walter > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Steve > Berwanger > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 1:27 PM > To: <mjm1021@comcast.net> > Cc: donauschwaben-villages; Barbara > Subject: Re: [DVHH] German Hungarians > > Thanks........ > This pretty much describes my memories of our family too! > > Steve Berwanger > Sent from my iPad > > > On May 1, 2014, at 11:41 AM, <mjm1021@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > I never had a problem with my parents' describing themselves as > German-Hungarians once I went back and studied their history. They were > Germans who resettled in Hungary but kept their German culture mixed with > some Hungarian culture. When they came to America they shortened it to > German Americans. Their culture was still German mixed with some Hungarian. > Their descendents became Americans. > > > > Fran Matkovich > > > > Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tony Fieder > > To: Eve, Barbara Hilderson > > Cc: donauschwaben-villages > > Sent: April 30, 2014 at 5:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named > > > > Is there similar information anywhere for Batschka prisoners??? > > Didn't find my dad's name (Peter) on the site provide below? > > > > Anton Fieder > > > > > >> From: evebrown@gmail.com > >> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:00:40 -0400 > >> To: bhilderson@msn.com > >> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: [DVHH] Replying to posts > >>> This is true, but it helps to know what the response is in regard to > >>> if > >> they at least leave the last post. > >>> Also helpful is for those with digest mode to use the subject line > >>> for the > >> one they are responding to - in fact all digest mail needs to have > >> the subject lines edited. > >>> Eve > >>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Barbara Hilderson > <bhilderson@msn.com>wrote: > >>>> To the DVHH members, I've edited Vol.7.Ossie 114 . Please don't > take > >>> offense; but it was very difficult to > >>> read your postings. Perhaps, if when you reply to a message you > delete > >>> all other messages before replying > >>> it would make your reply easier to read. Barb > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The names of people imprisoned at a notorious detention > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> camp on the > >>>>>> Croatian island of Goli Otok were published online as part of an > >>>>> exhibition > >>>>>> aimed at exposing Communist crimes. > >>>>>>> http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/list-of-goli-otok-prison > >>>>>>> ers-published-online?utm_source=Balkan+Transitional+Justice+Dail > >>>>>>> y+Newsletter&utm_campaign=c28b26ea0b-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medi > >>>>>>> um=email&utm_term=0_561b9a25c3-c28b26ea0b-319678805 > >>>>>>>>>>>> . > >>> to Karen, > >>>>> Thank you for the explanation as to > >>> "Our Beginnings" > >>> We should be grateful for those who went before us...... > >>> And.......my "Great Aunt Annie" was the best cook in the world !!!!! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Diane: > >>>>> With all due and grateful respect to everyone, I would hazard a > >>>>> guess that > >>> your Grandmother's political consciousness was to some extent formed > >>> during the short period in the 1800s when there was a "Dual > >>> Monarchy", and the Austrian aristocracy wanted the land and the power, > but not the "barbarian' > >>> Hungarians....see the story of Leopold and his suicide. That of > >>> course is a vast simplification of a very complicated political and > >>> historical period in history, but it gives you the basics from which > >>> to begin to understand the geographic and political mess in Eastern > >>> Europe beginning in the early 1800s and going forward. > >>>>> I have had a very interesting and informative dialogue going with > >>>>> Nick > >>> Tullis who is a first person immigrant and lived through the mess > >>> real time in the 1900s. He is certainly an eye witness expert on > >>> this, but I disagree with him that your "native tongue" determines > >>> your "ethnicity" which then becomes tangled into what your genetic > >>> makeup reveals and what informs your personal "identity". Your > >>> story and many others described on this list as well as my own, > >>> informs this discussion totally. After your description of your > >>> conversation with your Grandmother, correct me if I am wrong...which > >>> happens often :).....your Grandmother was referring satirically to > >>> the fact that in the territories of the Banat, the safest and most > >>> inclusive identity to have during her lifetime there was a political > >>> one...."we were all 'Germans' then". > >>>>> It seems to me all the most recent discussion threads evidence a > >>>>> real time > >>> probability that most folks in Eastern Europe during a 200 year or > >>> more period were in fact a microcosm of like-minded people from all > >>> over greater Europe and the Indian Peninsula who were seeking a > >>> peace and prosperity that is universal. They were brave, > >>> liberty-loving people who had migrated to the vast territories of > >>> the Hungarian and Russian Empires to be peaceful and productive. > >>> When you look closely you come to discover that their "ethnicity" > >>> hailed from a vast number of other areas, and their "citizenship" > >>> was fragile at best and in constant flux. Just the huge variety of > >>> different dialects, recipe differences, religious traditions, > >>> education attitudes, and flat-out languages where sometimes one > >>> Village group could not understand the language of the Village folk > >>> right next to them, speaks to that fact and informs it. > >>>>> None of what I have just said DIMINISHES what anyone then "thought > >>>>> or > >>> identified" themselves as, but rather I believe makes the whole > >>> story far richer and much more interesting! I believe the > >>> appropriateness of a collective identity called "Donauschwaben" does > >>> not describe "Germans", but rather a vastly complex and exciting > >>> grouping of people with the SAMEness of ideal and tradition...that > >>> is... great food, wonderful and loving "Village" > >>> identity, the best parts of a "Migration" to something better > >>> psyche, and a courage and strength that is both unusual collectively > >>> and magnificent individually. > >>>>> There was no braver person on this earth than my Grandmother! And > >>>>> she was > >>> born a Hungarian, lived as a mixed "German,Serb,Hungarian, Russian, > >>> Italian, French, Croat", spoke 4 languages and then added English, > >>> figured out the best of the Eastern European ethnicity, was > >>> genetically a mixed Caucasian and practiced 3 different religious > >>> affiliations during her lifetime. > >>> Then...she became an American. Don't know what you call that, but I > >>> call it Fabulous!! > >>>>> Karen. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > >>> From: MFCobb1@aol.com > >>> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > >>> To: bbd2424@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; > >>> dvhalas@comcast.net; jfschambre@comcast.net; easimcox@gmail.com > >>> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:40:31 -0400 > >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results > >>>>> Barb & Karen, I agree whole heartedly--well done. Karen, thank > >>>>> you for > >>> the well-thought-out epistle, and I use the word epistle as in a > >>> formal and > >>> elegant letter. This is going into my reference files. Thank you both > >>> for > >>> you time and effort. > >>>>> Marcia Fay (WAGENHALS) Cobb > >>> (Formerly of Mansfield, Ohio > >>> (My father was born in Kanak but emigrated from Franzfeld, > >>> Austria-Hungary) > >>> Newberg Oregon > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This discussion seems to never die. I put > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> togeher a few points about the > >>> nationality of the Danube Swabians in an attempt to clarify the > >>> issue. The long-time followers of this List may want to skip them > >>>>>>>>> 1. The dictionary definition of nationality: a body of people > sharing > >>> common descent, history, language, etc; they could form a nation; or > >>> they can form a national minority. > >>>>> 2. National minorities were officially recognized by the > governments of > >>> the more enlightened multi-national states of Europe (they were > >>> multinational because of the presence of national minorities). > >>>>> 3. With the multiple changes of borders and/or sovereignty in the > >>> territories inhabited by Danube Swabians, the determination of > >>> nationality by the country of birth would have been impossible. > >>> Attempts to change their nationality by force were never completely > >>> successful. > >>>>> 4. In new countries being built from immigrants, nationality and > >>> citizenship (here considered the same) were usually acquired by > >>> birth or by naturalization. > >>>>> 5. In older countries, such as Germany, belonging to a people in > the > >>> ethnic sense is referred to as nationality (but not necessarily > >>> citizenship). > >>>>> 6. Even in today's post-Communist States, citizens are assigned a > >>> nationality, which can make them members of a officially-recognized > >>> national minority. > >>>>>>>>> That the Danube Swabians are an ethnic German group is a > >>>>>>>>> well-established > >>> historical fact. It is determined not only by common descent, > >>> history, language, but a vast cultural heritage in German-language > >>> literature, in the arts like painting, sculpture and music. It was > >>> finally demonstrated by their recent (by historical time) > >>> immigration to and integration in the country of their ancestors. > >>> The latter are the vast majority; we in the New World (North > >>> America, Australia, Brazil, etc) are a small minority, and we are > >>> free to personally decide who we are and what we are. Our ancestors > >>> made their own decisions. May they rest in peace! > >>>>>>>>> Nick Tullius > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>>> -- > >> Syrmia Regional Coordinator > >> http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > >>>> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > >> message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There is another reason for ethnic Germans in the USA and Canada after WWI and after WWII to declare themselves to be anything other than German. It is that Germans were often hated and sometimes persecuted for being the enemy. Many friends, neighbours, and coworkers may have had their men over in Europe, fighting the Germans. Some of these men may have been killed over there. In addition, the war propaganda did its best to stir up the hatred not only of Germany, but of anything in any way German. There were closings of German newspapers, clubs, schools (or German classes); the city of Berlin in Ontario was renamed Kitchener. To avoid any undue consequences of being seen as the enemy, many ethnic Germans declared themselves to be Austrians, Hungarians, Romanians, or citizens of the other successor states. The numbers are reflected in the appropriate census data. These reactions are understandable: It is normal that nobody wants to be shunned, disadvantaged, or even persecuted for being "the enemy". Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rezso Altnetter Sent: 2-May-14 03:08 To: DVHH Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians Hi Dan, I think I can answer your question. Basically the Austrian-Hungarian Empire had (as the name say) Austria and Hungary as the rulers and the other regions like Bohemia (now Czech Rep) or Transylvania (now Romania) for example were under either Austria or Hungary. The Batschka was part of the Hungarian portion so they were after all Hungarian citizens. If you check this map it's easier to understand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dissolution_of_Austria-Hungary.png There you have what was under Austria and Hungary and then the division of the territories after the WWI when the all Empire colapsed. My ancestors were also German-Hungarians from Vezsprem (now Hungary). And in few documents they declared themselves Hungarians and in others Austrians, but the same as your ancestors, they kept their German culture. I hope it helps :) Regards, Roger Altnetter > From: ajwdcw@windstream.net > To: Donauschwaben-Villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 20:40:15 -0400 > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians > > So, I have a question. I have ancestry that came to the USA before and > after WWI and they declared themselves to be Hungarian, even though > they were of German heritage. Before the war their town, in the > Batschka, was part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. After the war they > were part of Yugoslavia. So why did they see themselves as being > Hungarian, as opposed to Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslavian? > Dan Walter > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Steve Berwanger > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 1:27 PM > To: <mjm1021@comcast.net> > Cc: donauschwaben-villages; Barbara > Subject: Re: [DVHH] German Hungarians > > Thanks........ > This pretty much describes my memories of our family too! > > Steve Berwanger > Sent from my iPad > > > On May 1, 2014, at 11:41 AM, <mjm1021@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > I never had a problem with my parents' describing themselves as > German-Hungarians once I went back and studied their history. They > were Germans who resettled in Hungary but kept their German culture > mixed with some Hungarian culture. When they came to America they > shortened it to German Americans. Their culture was still German mixed with some Hungarian. > Their descendents became Americans. > > > > Fran Matkovich > > > > Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tony Fieder > > To: Eve, Barbara Hilderson > > Cc: donauschwaben-villages > > Sent: April 30, 2014 at 5:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named > > > > Is there similar information anywhere for Batschka prisoners??? > > Didn't find my dad's name (Peter) on the site provide below? > > > > Anton Fieder > > > > > >> From: evebrown@gmail.com > >> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:00:40 -0400 > >> To: bhilderson@msn.com > >> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: [DVHH] Replying to posts > >>> This is true, but it helps to know what the response is in regard > >>> to if > >> they at least leave the last post. > >>> Also helpful is for those with digest mode to use the subject line > >>> for the > >> one they are responding to - in fact all digest mail needs to have > >> the subject lines edited. > >>> Eve > >>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Barbara Hilderson > <bhilderson@msn.com>wrote: > >>>> To the DVHH members, I've edited Vol.7.Ossie 114 . Please don't > take > >>> offense; but it was very difficult to > >>> read your postings. Perhaps, if when you reply to a message you > delete > >>> all other messages before replying > >>> it would make your reply easier to read. Barb > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The names of people imprisoned at a notorious > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> detention camp on the > >>>>>> Croatian island of Goli Otok were published online as part of > >>>>>> an > >>>>> exhibition > >>>>>> aimed at exposing Communist crimes. > >>>>>>> http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/list-of-goli-otok-pris > >>>>>>> on > >>>>>>> ers-published-online?utm_source=Balkan+Transitional+Justice+Da > >>>>>>> il > >>>>>>> y+Newsletter&utm_campaign=c28b26ea0b-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_me > >>>>>>> y+di > >>>>>>> um=email&utm_term=0_561b9a25c3-c28b26ea0b-319678805 > >>>>>>>>>>>> . > >>> to Karen, > >>>>> Thank you for the explanation as to > >>> "Our Beginnings" > >>> We should be grateful for those who went before us...... > >>> And.......my "Great Aunt Annie" was the best cook in the world !!!!! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Diane: > >>>>> With all due and grateful respect to everyone, I would hazard a > >>>>> guess that > >>> your Grandmother's political consciousness was to some extent > >>> formed during the short period in the 1800s when there was a "Dual > >>> Monarchy", and the Austrian aristocracy wanted the land and the > >>> power, > but not the "barbarian' > >>> Hungarians....see the story of Leopold and his suicide. That of > >>> course is a vast simplification of a very complicated political > >>> and historical period in history, but it gives you the basics from > >>> which to begin to understand the geographic and political mess in > >>> Eastern Europe beginning in the early 1800s and going forward. > >>>>> I have had a very interesting and informative dialogue going > >>>>> with Nick > >>> Tullis who is a first person immigrant and lived through the mess > >>> real time in the 1900s. He is certainly an eye witness expert on > >>> this, but I disagree with him that your "native tongue" determines > >>> your "ethnicity" which then becomes tangled into what your genetic > >>> makeup reveals and what informs your personal "identity". Your > >>> story and many others described on this list as well as my own, > >>> informs this discussion totally. After your description of your > >>> conversation with your Grandmother, correct me if I am > >>> wrong...which happens often :).....your Grandmother was referring > >>> satirically to the fact that in the territories of the Banat, the > >>> safest and most inclusive identity to have during her lifetime > >>> there was a political one...."we were all 'Germans' then". > >>>>> It seems to me all the most recent discussion threads evidence a > >>>>> real time > >>> probability that most folks in Eastern Europe during a 200 year or > >>> more period were in fact a microcosm of like-minded people from > >>> all over greater Europe and the Indian Peninsula who were seeking > >>> a peace and prosperity that is universal. They were brave, > >>> liberty-loving people who had migrated to the vast territories of > >>> the Hungarian and Russian Empires to be peaceful and productive. > >>> When you look closely you come to discover that their "ethnicity" > >>> hailed from a vast number of other areas, and their "citizenship" > >>> was fragile at best and in constant flux. Just the huge variety > >>> of different dialects, recipe differences, religious traditions, > >>> education attitudes, and flat-out languages where sometimes one > >>> Village group could not understand the language of the Village > >>> folk right next to them, speaks to that fact and informs it. > >>>>> None of what I have just said DIMINISHES what anyone then > >>>>> "thought or > >>> identified" themselves as, but rather I believe makes the whole > >>> story far richer and much more interesting! I believe the > >>> appropriateness of a collective identity called "Donauschwaben" > >>> does not describe "Germans", but rather a vastly complex and > >>> exciting grouping of people with the SAMEness of ideal and > >>> tradition...that is... great food, wonderful and loving "Village" > >>> identity, the best parts of a "Migration" to something better > >>> psyche, and a courage and strength that is both unusual > >>> collectively and magnificent individually. > >>>>> There was no braver person on this earth than my Grandmother! > >>>>> And she was > >>> born a Hungarian, lived as a mixed "German,Serb,Hungarian, > >>> Russian, Italian, French, Croat", spoke 4 languages and then > >>> added English, figured out the best of the Eastern European > >>> ethnicity, was genetically a mixed Caucasian and practiced 3 > >>> different religious affiliations during her lifetime. > >>> Then...she became an American. Don't know what you call that, but > >>> I call it Fabulous!! > >>>>> Karen. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > >>> From: MFCobb1@aol.com > >>> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > >>> To: bbd2424@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; > >>> dvhalas@comcast.net; jfschambre@comcast.net; easimcox@gmail.com > >>> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:40:31 -0400 > >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results > >>>>> Barb & Karen, I agree whole heartedly--well done. Karen, > >>>>> thank you for > >>> the well-thought-out epistle, and I use the word epistle as in a > >>> formal and > >>> elegant letter. This is going into my reference files. Thank you both > >>> for > >>> you time and effort. > >>>>> Marcia Fay (WAGENHALS) Cobb > >>> (Formerly of Mansfield, Ohio > >>> (My father was born in Kanak but emigrated from Franzfeld, > >>> Austria-Hungary) > >>> Newberg Oregon > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This discussion seems to never die. I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put togeher a few points about the > >>> nationality of the Danube Swabians in an attempt to clarify the > >>> issue. The long-time followers of this List may want to skip them > >>>>>>>>> 1. The dictionary definition of nationality: a body of people > sharing > >>> common descent, history, language, etc; they could form a nation; > >>> or they can form a national minority. > >>>>> 2. National minorities were officially recognized by the > governments of > >>> the more enlightened multi-national states of Europe (they were > >>> multinational because of the presence of national minorities). > >>>>> 3. With the multiple changes of borders and/or sovereignty in the > >>> territories inhabited by Danube Swabians, the determination of > >>> nationality by the country of birth would have been impossible. > >>> Attempts to change their nationality by force were never > >>> completely successful. > >>>>> 4. In new countries being built from immigrants, nationality and > >>> citizenship (here considered the same) were usually acquired by > >>> birth or by naturalization. > >>>>> 5. In older countries, such as Germany, belonging to a people in > the > >>> ethnic sense is referred to as nationality (but not necessarily > >>> citizenship). > >>>>> 6. Even in today's post-Communist States, citizens are assigned a > >>> nationality, which can make them members of a > >>> officially-recognized national minority. > >>>>>>>>> That the Danube Swabians are an ethnic German group is a > >>>>>>>>> well-established > >>> historical fact. It is determined not only by common descent, > >>> history, language, but a vast cultural heritage in German-language > >>> literature, in the arts like painting, sculpture and music. It was > >>> finally demonstrated by their recent (by historical time) > >>> immigration to and integration in the country of their ancestors. > >>> The latter are the vast majority; we in the New World (North > >>> America, Australia, Brazil, etc) are a small minority, and we are > >>> free to personally decide who we are and what we are. Our > >>> ancestors made their own decisions. May they rest in peace! > >>>>>>>>> Nick Tullius > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>>> -- > >> Syrmia Regional Coordinator > >> http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > >>>> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > >> message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nick, This is absolutely correct. The case of my dad gave me the answer. He never said anything about being ethnic German or even never used to speak out loud about the Donauschwaben to anybody not interested, especially in France where we lived. He would always refer to being Yugoslav, as Syrmia, where he was born, became finally part of this country after WWII. Cheers! Tina Michel, Montreal, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: "'DVHH'" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians > There is another reason for ethnic Germans in the USA and Canada after WWI > and after WWII to declare themselves to be anything other than German. It > is > that Germans were often hated and sometimes persecuted for being the > enemy. > Many friends, neighbours, and coworkers may have had their men over in > Europe, fighting the Germans. Some of these men may have been killed over > there. In addition, the war propaganda did its best to stir up the hatred > not only of Germany, but of anything in any way German. > There were closings of German newspapers, clubs, schools (or German > classes); the city of Berlin in Ontario was renamed Kitchener. To avoid > any > undue consequences of being seen as the enemy, many ethnic Germans > declared > themselves to be Austrians, Hungarians, Romanians, or citizens of the > other > successor states. The numbers are reflected in the appropriate census > data. > These reactions are understandable: It is normal that nobody wants > to be shunned, disadvantaged, or even persecuted for being "the enemy". > > Nick Tullius > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rezso > Altnetter > Sent: 2-May-14 03:08 > To: DVHH > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians > > > > > Hi Dan, > > I think I can answer your question. > Basically the Austrian-Hungarian Empire had (as the name say) Austria and > Hungary as the rulers and the other regions like Bohemia (now Czech Rep) > or > Transylvania (now Romania) for example were under either Austria or > Hungary. > The Batschka was part of the Hungarian portion so they were after all > Hungarian citizens. > > If you check this map it's easier to understand: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dissolution_of_Austria-Hungary.png > There you have what was under Austria and Hungary and then the division of > the territories after the WWI when the all Empire colapsed. > > My ancestors were also German-Hungarians from Vezsprem (now Hungary). > And in few documents they declared themselves Hungarians and in others > Austrians, but the same as your ancestors, they kept their German culture. > > I hope it helps :) > > Regards, > Roger Altnetter > > From: ajwdcw@windstream.net >> To: Donauschwaben-Villages@rootsweb.com >> Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 20:40:15 -0400 >> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians >> >> So, I have a question. I have ancestry that came to the USA before and >> after WWI and they declared themselves to be Hungarian, even though >> they were of German heritage. Before the war their town, in the >> Batschka, was part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. After the war they >> were part of Yugoslavia. So why did they see themselves as being >> Hungarian, as opposed to Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslavian? >> Dan Walter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of >> Steve Berwanger >> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 1:27 PM >> To: <mjm1021@comcast.net> >> Cc: donauschwaben-villages; Barbara >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] German Hungarians >> >> Thanks........ >> This pretty much describes my memories of our family too! >> >> Steve Berwanger >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On May 1, 2014, at 11:41 AM, <mjm1021@comcast.net> wrote: >> > >> > I never had a problem with my parents' describing themselves as >> German-Hungarians once I went back and studied their history. They >> were Germans who resettled in Hungary but kept their German culture >> mixed with some Hungarian culture. When they came to America they >> shortened it to German Americans. Their culture was still German mixed > with some Hungarian. >> Their descendents became Americans. >> > >> > Fran Matkovich >> > >> > Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Tony Fieder >> > To: Eve, Barbara Hilderson >> > Cc: donauschwaben-villages >> > Sent: April 30, 2014 at 5:08 PM >> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named >> > >> > Is there similar information anywhere for Batschka prisoners??? >> > Didn't find my dad's name (Peter) on the site provide below? >> > >> > Anton Fieder >> > >> > >> >> From: evebrown@gmail.com >> >> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:00:40 -0400 >> >> To: bhilderson@msn.com >> >> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: [DVHH] Replying to posts >> >>> This is true, but it helps to know what the response is in regard >> >>> to if >> >> they at least leave the last post. >> >>> Also helpful is for those with digest mode to use the subject line >> >>> for the >> >> one they are responding to - in fact all digest mail needs to have >> >> the subject lines edited. >> >>> Eve >> >>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Barbara Hilderson >> <bhilderson@msn.com>wrote: >> >>>> To the DVHH members, I've edited Vol.7.Ossie 114 . Please >> >>>> don't >> take >> >>> offense; but it was very difficult to >> >>> read your postings. Perhaps, if when you reply to a message you >> delete >> >>> all other messages before replying >> >>> it would make your reply easier to read. Barb >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The names of people imprisoned at a notorious >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> detention camp on the >> >>>>>> Croatian island of Goli Otok were published online as part of >> >>>>>> an >> >>>>> exhibition >> >>>>>> aimed at exposing Communist crimes. >> >>>>>>> http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/list-of-goli-otok-pris >> >>>>>>> on >> >>>>>>> ers-published-online?utm_source=Balkan+Transitional+Justice+Da >> >>>>>>> il >> >>>>>>> y+Newsletter&utm_campaign=c28b26ea0b-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_me >> >>>>>>> y+di >> >>>>>>> um=email&utm_term=0_561b9a25c3-c28b26ea0b-319678805 >> >>>>>>>>>>>> . >> >>> to Karen, >> >>>>> Thank you for the explanation as to >> >>> "Our Beginnings" >> >>> We should be grateful for those who went before us...... >> >>> And.......my "Great Aunt Annie" was the best cook in the world !!!!! >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Diane: >> >>>>> With all due and grateful respect to everyone, I would hazard a >> >>>>> guess that >> >>> your Grandmother's political consciousness was to some extent >> >>> formed during the short period in the 1800s when there was a "Dual >> >>> Monarchy", and the Austrian aristocracy wanted the land and the >> >>> power, >> but not the "barbarian' >> >>> Hungarians....see the story of Leopold and his suicide. That of >> >>> course is a vast simplification of a very complicated political >> >>> and historical period in history, but it gives you the basics from >> >>> which to begin to understand the geographic and political mess in >> >>> Eastern Europe beginning in the early 1800s and going forward. >> >>>>> I have had a very interesting and informative dialogue going >> >>>>> with Nick >> >>> Tullis who is a first person immigrant and lived through the mess >> >>> real time in the 1900s. He is certainly an eye witness expert on >> >>> this, but I disagree with him that your "native tongue" determines >> >>> your "ethnicity" which then becomes tangled into what your genetic >> >>> makeup reveals and what informs your personal "identity". Your >> >>> story and many others described on this list as well as my own, >> >>> informs this discussion totally. After your description of your >> >>> conversation with your Grandmother, correct me if I am >> >>> wrong...which happens often :).....your Grandmother was referring >> >>> satirically to the fact that in the territories of the Banat, the >> >>> safest and most inclusive identity to have during her lifetime >> >>> there was a political one...."we were all 'Germans' then". >> >>>>> It seems to me all the most recent discussion threads evidence a >> >>>>> real time >> >>> probability that most folks in Eastern Europe during a 200 year or >> >>> more period were in fact a microcosm of like-minded people from >> >>> all over greater Europe and the Indian Peninsula who were seeking >> >>> a peace and prosperity that is universal. They were brave, >> >>> liberty-loving people who had migrated to the vast territories of >> >>> the Hungarian and Russian Empires to be peaceful and productive. >> >>> When you look closely you come to discover that their "ethnicity" >> >>> hailed from a vast number of other areas, and their "citizenship" >> >>> was fragile at best and in constant flux. Just the huge variety >> >>> of different dialects, recipe differences, religious traditions, >> >>> education attitudes, and flat-out languages where sometimes one >> >>> Village group could not understand the language of the Village >> >>> folk right next to them, speaks to that fact and informs it. >> >>>>> None of what I have just said DIMINISHES what anyone then >> >>>>> "thought or >> >>> identified" themselves as, but rather I believe makes the whole >> >>> story far richer and much more interesting! I believe the >> >>> appropriateness of a collective identity called "Donauschwaben" >> >>> does not describe "Germans", but rather a vastly complex and >> >>> exciting grouping of people with the SAMEness of ideal and >> >>> tradition...that is... great food, wonderful and loving "Village" >> >>> identity, the best parts of a "Migration" to something better >> >>> psyche, and a courage and strength that is both unusual >> >>> collectively and magnificent individually. >> >>>>> There was no braver person on this earth than my Grandmother! >> >>>>> And she was >> >>> born a Hungarian, lived as a mixed "German,Serb,Hungarian, >> >>> Russian, Italian, French, Croat", spoke 4 languages and then >> >>> added English, figured out the best of the Eastern European >> >>> ethnicity, was genetically a mixed Caucasian and practiced 3 >> >>> different religious affiliations during her lifetime. >> >>> Then...she became an American. Don't know what you call that, but >> >>> I call it Fabulous!! >> >>>>> Karen. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Forwarded Message Attachment-- >> >>> From: MFCobb1@aol.com >> >>> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> >>> To: bbd2424@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; >> >>> dvhalas@comcast.net; jfschambre@comcast.net; easimcox@gmail.com >> >>> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:40:31 -0400 >> >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results >> >>>>> Barb & Karen, I agree whole heartedly--well done. Karen, >> >>>>> thank you for >> >>> the well-thought-out epistle, and I use the word epistle as in a >> >>> formal and >> >>> elegant letter. This is going into my reference files. Thank you > both >> >>> for >> >>> you time and effort. >> >>>>> Marcia Fay (WAGENHALS) Cobb >> >>> (Formerly of Mansfield, Ohio >> >>> (My father was born in Kanak but emigrated from Franzfeld, >> >>> Austria-Hungary) >> >>> Newberg Oregon >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This discussion seems to never die. I >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put togeher a few points about the >> >>> nationality of the Danube Swabians in an attempt to clarify the >> >>> issue. The long-time followers of this List may want to skip them >> >>>>>>>>> 1. The dictionary definition of nationality: a body of >> >>>>>>>>> people >> sharing >> >>> common descent, history, language, etc; they could form a nation; >> >>> or they can form a national minority. >> >>>>> 2. National minorities were officially recognized by the >> governments of >> >>> the more enlightened multi-national states of Europe (they were >> >>> multinational because of the presence of national minorities). >> >>>>> 3. With the multiple changes of borders and/or sovereignty in >> >>>>> the >> >>> territories inhabited by Danube Swabians, the determination of >> >>> nationality by the country of birth would have been impossible. >> >>> Attempts to change their nationality by force were never >> >>> completely successful. >> >>>>> 4. In new countries being built from immigrants, nationality and >> >>> citizenship (here considered the same) were usually acquired by >> >>> birth or by naturalization. >> >>>>> 5. In older countries, such as Germany, belonging to a people in >> the >> >>> ethnic sense is referred to as nationality (but not necessarily >> >>> citizenship). >> >>>>> 6. Even in today's post-Communist States, citizens are assigned >> >>>>> a >> >>> nationality, which can make them members of a >> >>> officially-recognized national minority. >> >>>>>>>>> That the Danube Swabians are an ethnic German group is a >> >>>>>>>>> well-established >> >>> historical fact. It is determined not only by common descent, >> >>> history, language, but a vast cultural heritage in German-language >> >>> literature, in the arts like painting, sculpture and music. It was >> >>> finally demonstrated by their recent (by historical time) >> >>> immigration to and integration in the country of their ancestors. >> >>> The latter are the vast majority; we in the New World (North >> >>> America, Australia, Brazil, etc) are a small minority, and we are >> >>> free to personally decide who we are and what we are. Our >> >>> ancestors made their own decisions. May they rest in peace! >> >>>>>>>>> Nick Tullius >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' >> >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>>>>>> -- >> >> Syrmia Regional Coordinator >> >> http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia >> >>>> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> >> message >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> > message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> > message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- > Aucun virus trouve dans ce message. > Analyse effectuee par AVG - www.avg.fr > Version: 2013.0.3469 / Base de donnees virale: 3722/7431 - Date: > 02/05/2014 >

I 100% agree with Nick. It is true. All ethnic Germans, all Donauschwaben, went through this. They were afraid. Very afraid. That was the atmosphere. The Germans were even condemned in the United States. They were looked at as Nazis. These are the negative consequences, unfortunately, after the war. They were afraid to say what they were. The only winner out of the second world war, the only big winner, was Stalin! He got EVERYTHING he wanted. Roosevelt and Churchill sold Eastern Europe, the Donauschwaben, out to the Russians. And the Yalta-Potsdam agreement confirms what I am saying. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Tullius <ntullius@rogers.com> < There is another reason for ethnic Germans in the USA and Canada after WWI and after WWII to declare themselves to be anything other than German. It is that Germans were often hated and sometimes persecuted for being the enemy. Many friends, neighbours, and coworkers may have had their men over in Europe, fighting the Germans. Some of these men may have been killed over there. In addition, the war propaganda did its best to stir up the hatred not only of Germany, but of anything in any way German. There were closings of German newspapers, clubs, schools (or German classes); the city of Berlin in Ontario was renamed Kitchener. To avoid any undue consequences of being seen as the enemy, many ethnic Germans declared themselves to be Austrians, Hungarians, Romanians, or citizens of the other successor states. The numbers are reflected in the appropriate census data. These reactions are understandable: It is normal that nobody wants to be shunned, disadvantaged, or even persecuted for being "the enemy". > Nick Tullius

My grandparents emigrated in 1907 and 1909. During WWII, I've been told that after 20 years in the same neighborhood, their house was egged. Note that they had two sons and two sons-in-law in the U.S. Navy fighting against the Axis. Yes, propaganda runs deep. Linda Bautz McKenna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: "'DVHH'" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians > There is another reason for ethnic Germans in the USA and Canada after WWI > and after WWII to declare themselves to be anything other than German. It > is > that Germans were often hated and sometimes persecuted for being the > enemy. > Many friends, neighbours, and coworkers may have had their men over in > Europe, fighting the Germans. Some of these men may have been killed over > there. In addition, the war propaganda did its best to stir up the hatred > not only of Germany, but of anything in any way German. > There were closings of German newspapers, clubs, schools (or German > classes); the city of Berlin in Ontario was renamed Kitchener. To avoid > any > undue consequences of being seen as the enemy, many ethnic Germans > declared > themselves to be Austrians, Hungarians, Romanians, or citizens of the > other > successor states. The numbers are reflected in the appropriate census > data. > These reactions are understandable: It is normal that nobody wants > to be shunned, disadvantaged, or even persecuted for being "the enemy". > > Nick Tullius > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rezso > Altnetter > Sent: 2-May-14 03:08 > To: DVHH > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians > > > > > Hi Dan, > > I think I can answer your question. > Basically the Austrian-Hungarian Empire had (as the name say) Austria and > Hungary as the rulers and the other regions like Bohemia (now Czech Rep) > or > Transylvania (now Romania) for example were under either Austria or > Hungary. > The Batschka was part of the Hungarian portion so they were after all > Hungarian citizens. > > If you check this map it's easier to understand: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dissolution_of_Austria-Hungary.png > There you have what was under Austria and Hungary and then the division of > the territories after the WWI when the all Empire colapsed. > > My ancestors were also German-Hungarians from Vezsprem (now Hungary). > And in few documents they declared themselves Hungarians and in others > Austrians, but the same as your ancestors, they kept their German culture. > > I hope it helps :) > > Regards, > Roger Altnetter > > From: ajwdcw@windstream.net >> To: Donauschwaben-Villages@rootsweb.com >> Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 20:40:15 -0400 >> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians >> >> So, I have a question. I have ancestry that came to the USA before and >> after WWI and they declared themselves to be Hungarian, even though >> they were of German heritage. Before the war their town, in the >> Batschka, was part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. After the war they >> were part of Yugoslavia. So why did they see themselves as being >> Hungarian, as opposed to Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslavian? >> Dan Walter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of >> Steve Berwanger >> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 1:27 PM >> To: <mjm1021@comcast.net> >> Cc: donauschwaben-villages; Barbara >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] German Hungarians >> >> Thanks........ >> This pretty much describes my memories of our family too! >> >> Steve Berwanger >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On May 1, 2014, at 11:41 AM, <mjm1021@comcast.net> wrote: >> > >> > I never had a problem with my parents' describing themselves as >> German-Hungarians once I went back and studied their history. They >> were Germans who resettled in Hungary but kept their German culture >> mixed with some Hungarian culture. When they came to America they >> shortened it to German Americans. Their culture was still German mixed > with some Hungarian. >> Their descendents became Americans. >> > >> > Fran Matkovich >> > >> > Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Tony Fieder >> > To: Eve, Barbara Hilderson >> > Cc: donauschwaben-villages >> > Sent: April 30, 2014 at 5:08 PM >> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named >> > >> > Is there similar information anywhere for Batschka prisoners??? >> > Didn't find my dad's name (Peter) on the site provide below? >> > >> > Anton Fieder >> > >> > >> >> From: evebrown@gmail.com >> >> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:00:40 -0400 >> >> To: bhilderson@msn.com >> >> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: [DVHH] Replying to posts >> >>> This is true, but it helps to know what the response is in regard >> >>> to if >> >> they at least leave the last post. >> >>> Also helpful is for those with digest mode to use the subject line >> >>> for the >> >> one they are responding to - in fact all digest mail needs to have >> >> the subject lines edited. >> >>> Eve >> >>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Barbara Hilderson >> <bhilderson@msn.com>wrote: >> >>>> To the DVHH members, I've edited Vol.7.Ossie 114 . Please >> >>>> don't >> take >> >>> offense; but it was very difficult to >> >>> read your postings. Perhaps, if when you reply to a message you >> delete >> >>> all other messages before replying >> >>> it would make your reply easier to read. Barb >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The names of people imprisoned at a notorious >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> detention camp on the >> >>>>>> Croatian island of Goli Otok were published online as part of >> >>>>>> an >> >>>>> exhibition >> >>>>>> aimed at exposing Communist crimes. >> >>>>>>> http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/list-of-goli-otok-pris >> >>>>>>> on >> >>>>>>> ers-published-online?utm_source=Balkan+Transitional+Justice+Da >> >>>>>>> il >> >>>>>>> y+Newsletter&utm_campaign=c28b26ea0b-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_me >> >>>>>>> y+di >> >>>>>>> um=email&utm_term=0_561b9a25c3-c28b26ea0b-319678805 >> >>>>>>>>>>>> . >> >>> to Karen, >> >>>>> Thank you for the explanation as to >> >>> "Our Beginnings" >> >>> We should be grateful for those who went before us...... >> >>> And.......my "Great Aunt Annie" was the best cook in the world !!!!! >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Diane: >> >>>>> With all due and grateful respect to everyone, I would hazard a >> >>>>> guess that >> >>> your Grandmother's political consciousness was to some extent >> >>> formed during the short period in the 1800s when there was a "Dual >> >>> Monarchy", and the Austrian aristocracy wanted the land and the >> >>> power, >> but not the "barbarian' >> >>> Hungarians....see the story of Leopold and his suicide. That of >> >>> course is a vast simplification of a very complicated political >> >>> and historical period in history, but it gives you the basics from >> >>> which to begin to understand the geographic and political mess in >> >>> Eastern Europe beginning in the early 1800s and going forward. >> >>>>> I have had a very interesting and informative dialogue going >> >>>>> with Nick >> >>> Tullis who is a first person immigrant and lived through the mess >> >>> real time in the 1900s. He is certainly an eye witness expert on >> >>> this, but I disagree with him that your "native tongue" determines >> >>> your "ethnicity" which then becomes tangled into what your genetic >> >>> makeup reveals and what informs your personal "identity". Your >> >>> story and many others described on this list as well as my own, >> >>> informs this discussion totally. After your description of your >> >>> conversation with your Grandmother, correct me if I am >> >>> wrong...which happens often :).....your Grandmother was referring >> >>> satirically to the fact that in the territories of the Banat, the >> >>> safest and most inclusive identity to have during her lifetime >> >>> there was a political one...."we were all 'Germans' then". >> >>>>> It seems to me all the most recent discussion threads evidence a >> >>>>> real time >> >>> probability that most folks in Eastern Europe during a 200 year or >> >>> more period were in fact a microcosm of like-minded people from >> >>> all over greater Europe and the Indian Peninsula who were seeking >> >>> a peace and prosperity that is universal. They were brave, >> >>> liberty-loving people who had migrated to the vast territories of >> >>> the Hungarian and Russian Empires to be peaceful and productive. >> >>> When you look closely you come to discover that their "ethnicity" >> >>> hailed from a vast number of other areas, and their "citizenship" >> >>> was fragile at best and in constant flux. Just the huge variety >> >>> of different dialects, recipe differences, religious traditions, >> >>> education attitudes, and flat-out languages where sometimes one >> >>> Village group could not understand the language of the Village >> >>> folk right next to them, speaks to that fact and informs it. >> >>>>> None of what I have just said DIMINISHES what anyone then >> >>>>> "thought or >> >>> identified" themselves as, but rather I believe makes the whole >> >>> story far richer and much more interesting! I believe the >> >>> appropriateness of a collective identity called "Donauschwaben" >> >>> does not describe "Germans", but rather a vastly complex and >> >>> exciting grouping of people with the SAMEness of ideal and >> >>> tradition...that is... great food, wonderful and loving "Village" >> >>> identity, the best parts of a "Migration" to something better >> >>> psyche, and a courage and strength that is both unusual >> >>> collectively and magnificent individually. >> >>>>> There was no braver person on this earth than my Grandmother! >> >>>>> And she was >> >>> born a Hungarian, lived as a mixed "German,Serb,Hungarian, >> >>> Russian, Italian, French, Croat", spoke 4 languages and then >> >>> added English, figured out the best of the Eastern European >> >>> ethnicity, was genetically a mixed Caucasian and practiced 3 >> >>> different religious affiliations during her lifetime. >> >>> Then...she became an American. Don't know what you call that, but >> >>> I call it Fabulous!! >> >>>>> Karen. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Forwarded Message Attachment-- >> >>> From: MFCobb1@aol.com >> >>> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> >>> To: bbd2424@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; >> >>> dvhalas@comcast.net; jfschambre@comcast.net; easimcox@gmail.com >> >>> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:40:31 -0400 >> >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results >> >>>>> Barb & Karen, I agree whole heartedly--well done. Karen, >> >>>>> thank you for >> >>> the well-thought-out epistle, and I use the word epistle as in a >> >>> formal and >> >>> elegant letter. This is going into my reference files. Thank you > both >> >>> for >> >>> you time and effort. >> >>>>> Marcia Fay (WAGENHALS) Cobb >> >>> (Formerly of Mansfield, Ohio >> >>> (My father was born in Kanak but emigrated from Franzfeld, >> >>> Austria-Hungary) >> >>> Newberg Oregon >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This discussion seems to never die. I >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put togeher a few points about the >> >>> nationality of the Danube Swabians in an attempt to clarify the >> >>> issue. The long-time followers of this List may want to skip them >> >>>>>>>>> 1. The dictionary definition of nationality: a body of >> >>>>>>>>> people >> sharing >> >>> common descent, history, language, etc; they could form a nation; >> >>> or they can form a national minority. >> >>>>> 2. National minorities were officially recognized by the >> governments of >> >>> the more enlightened multi-national states of Europe (they were >> >>> multinational because of the presence of national minorities). >> >>>>> 3. With the multiple changes of borders and/or sovereignty in >> >>>>> the >> >>> territories inhabited by Danube Swabians, the determination of >> >>> nationality by the country of birth would have been impossible. >> >>> Attempts to change their nationality by force were never >> >>> completely successful. >> >>>>> 4. In new countries being built from immigrants, nationality and >> >>> citizenship (here considered the same) were usually acquired by >> >>> birth or by naturalization. >> >>>>> 5. In older countries, such as Germany, belonging to a people in >> the >> >>> ethnic sense is referred to as nationality (but not necessarily >> >>> citizenship). >> >>>>> 6. Even in today's post-Communist States, citizens are assigned >> >>>>> a >> >>> nationality, which can make them members of a >> >>> officially-recognized national minority. >> >>>>>>>>> That the Danube Swabians are an ethnic German group is a >> >>>>>>>>> well-established >> >>> historical fact. It is determined not only by common descent, >> >>> history, language, but a vast cultural heritage in German-language >> >>> literature, in the arts like painting, sculpture and music. It was >> >>> finally demonstrated by their recent (by historical time) >> >>> immigration to and integration in the country of their ancestors. >> >>> The latter are the vast majority; we in the New World (North >> >>> America, Australia, Brazil, etc) are a small minority, and we are >> >>> free to personally decide who we are and what we are. Our >> >>> ancestors made their own decisions. May they rest in peace! >> >>>>>>>>> Nick Tullius >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' >> >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>>>>>> -- >> >> Syrmia Regional Coordinator >> >> http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia >> >>>> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> >> message >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> > message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> > message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! 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