To the DVHH members, I've edited Vol.7.Ossie 114 . Please don't take offense; but it was very difficult to read your postings. Perhaps, if when you reply to a message you delete all other messages before replying it would make your reply easier to read. Barb >>> Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named >>> >>> >>> The names of people imprisoned at a notorious detention camp on the >>> Croatian island of Goli Otok were published online as part of an >> exhibition >>> aimed at exposing Communist crimes. >> http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/list-of-goli-otok-prisoners-published-online?utm_source=Balkan+Transitional+Justice+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=c28b26ea0b-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_561b9a25c3-c28b26ea0b-319678805 >>> . to Karen, Thank you for the explanation as to "Our Beginnings" We should be grateful for those who went before us...... And.......my "Great Aunt Annie" was the best cook in the world !!!!! Hi Diane: With all due and grateful respect to everyone, I would hazard a guess that your Grandmother's political consciousness was to some extent formed during the short period in the 1800s when there was a "Dual Monarchy", and the Austrian aristocracy wanted the land and the power, but not the "barbarian' Hungarians....see the story of Leopold and his suicide. That of course is a vast simplification of a very complicated political and historical period in history, but it gives you the basics from which to begin to understand the geographic and political mess in Eastern Europe beginning in the early 1800s and going forward. I have had a very interesting and informative dialogue going with Nick Tullis who is a first person immigrant and lived through the mess real time in the 1900s. He is certainly an eye witness expert on this, but I disagree with him that your "native tongue" determines your "ethnicity" which then becomes tangled into what your genetic makeup reveals and what informs your personal "identity". Your story and many others described on this list as well as my own, informs this discussion totally. After your description of your conversation with your Grandmother, correct me if I am wrong...which happens often :).....your Grandmother was referring satirically to the fact that in the territories of the Banat, the safest and most inclusive identity to have during her lifetime there was a political one...."we were all 'Germans' then". It seems to me all the most recent discussion threads evidence a real time probability that most folks in Eastern Europe during a 200 year or more period were in fact a microcosm of like-minded people from all over greater Europe and the Indian Peninsula who were seeking a peace and prosperity that is universal. They were brave, liberty-loving people who had migrated to the vast territories of the Hungarian and Russian Empires to be peaceful and productive. When you look closely you come to discover that their "ethnicity" hailed from a vast number of other areas, and their "citizenship" was fragile at best and in constant flux. Just the huge variety of different dialects, recipe differences, religious traditions, education attitudes, and flat-out languages where sometimes one Village group could not understand the language of the Village folk right next to them, speaks to that fact and informs it. None of what I have just said DIMINISHES what anyone then "thought or identified" themselves as, but rather I believe makes the whole story far richer and much more interesting! I believe the appropriateness of a collective identity called "Donauschwaben" does not describe "Germans", but rather a vastly complex and exciting grouping of people with the SAMEness of ideal and tradition...that is... great food, wonderful and loving "Village" identity, the best parts of a "Migration" to something better psyche, and a courage and strength that is both unusual collectively and magnificent individually. There was no braver person on this earth than my Grandmother! And she was born a Hungarian, lived as a mixed "German,Serb,Hungarian, Russian, Italian, French, Croat", spoke 4 languages and then added English, figured out the best of the Eastern European ethnicity, was genetically a mixed Caucasian and practiced 3 different religious affiliations during her lifetime. Then...she became an American. Don't know what you call that, but I call it Fabulous!! Karen. --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: MFCobb1@aol.com CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com To: bbd2424@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; dvhalas@comcast.net; jfschambre@comcast.net; easimcox@gmail.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:40:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results Barb & Karen, I agree whole heartedly--well done. Karen, thank you for the well-thought-out epistle, and I use the word epistle as in a formal and elegant letter. This is going into my reference files. Thank you both for you time and effort. Marcia Fay (WAGENHALS) Cobb (Formerly of Mansfield, Ohio (My father was born in Kanak but emigrated from Franzfeld, Austria-Hungary) Newberg Oregon This discussion seems to never die. I put togeher a few points about the nationality of the Danube Swabians in an attempt to clarify the issue. The long-time followers of this List may want to skip them 1. The dictionary definition of nationality: a body of people sharing common descent, history, language, etc; they could form a nation; or they can form a national minority. 2. National minorities were officially recognized by the governments of the more enlightened multi-national states of Europe (they were multinational because of the presence of national minorities). 3. With the multiple changes of borders and/or sovereignty in the territories inhabited by Danube Swabians, the determination of nationality by the country of birth would have been impossible. Attempts to change their nationality by force were never completely successful. 4. In new countries being built from immigrants, nationality and citizenship (here considered the same) were usually acquired by birth or by naturalization. 5. In older countries, such as Germany, belonging to a people in the ethnic sense is referred to as nationality (but not necessarily citizenship). 6. Even in today's post-Communist States, citizens are assigned a nationality, which can make them members of a officially-recognized national minority. That the Danube Swabians are an ethnic German group is a well-established historical fact. It is determined not only by common descent, history, language, but a vast cultural heritage in German-language literature, in the arts like painting, sculpture and music. It was finally demonstrated by their recent (by historical time) immigration to and integration in the country of their ancestors. The latter are the vast majority; we in the New World (North America, Australia, Brazil, etc) are a small minority, and we are free to personally decide who we are and what we are. Our ancestors made their own decisions. May they rest in peace! Nick Tullius >