As long a new people are looking into their family history, this hopefully will always be an often asked question. ------------------- Jim Heil > On Apr 30, 2014, at 2:11 PM, "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> wrote: > > This discussion seems to never die. I put togeher a few points about the > nationality of the Danube Swabians in an attempt to clarify the issue. The > long-time followers of this List may want to skip them > > > > 1. The dictionary definition of nationality: a body of people sharing > common descent, history, language, etc; they could form a nation; or they > can form a national minority. > > 2. National minorities were officially recognized by the governments of > the more enlightened multi-national states of Europe (they were > multinational because of the presence of national minorities). > > 3. With the multiple changes of borders and/or sovereignty in the > territories inhabited by Danube Swabians, the determination of nationality > by the country of birth would have been impossible. Attempts to change their > nationality by force were never completely successful. > > 4. In new countries being built from immigrants, nationality and > citizenship (here considered the same) were usually acquired by birth or by > naturalization. > > 5. In older countries, such as Germany, belonging to a people in the > ethnic sense is referred to as nationality (but not necessarily > citizenship). > > 6. Even in today's post-Communist States, citizens are assigned a > nationality, which can make them members of a officially-recognized national > minority. > > > > That the Danube Swabians are an ethnic German group is a well-established > historical fact. It is determined not only by common descent, history, > language, but a vast cultural heritage in German-language literature, in the > arts like painting, sculpture and music. It was finally demonstrated by > their recent (by historical time) immigration to and integration in the > country of their ancestors. The latter are the vast majority; we in the New > World (North America, Australia, Brazil, etc) are a small minority, and we > are free to personally decide who we are and what we are. Our ancestors made > their own decisions. May they rest in peace! > > > > Nick Tullius > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > islandkaren > Sent: 30-Apr-14 13:24 > To: Diane Halas; 'John Schambre'; 'Eileen Simcox' > Cc: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results > > > > Hi Diane: > > > > With all due and grateful respect to everyone, I would hazard a guess that > your Grandmother's political consciousness was to some extent formed during > the short period in the 1800s when there was a "Dual Monarchy", and the > Austrian aristocracy wanted the land and the power, but not the "barbarian' > > Hungarians....see the story of Leopold and his suicide. That of course is a > vast simplification of a very complicated political and historical period in > history, but it gives you the basics from which to begin to understand the > geographic and political mess in Eastern Europe beginning in the early 1800s > and going forward. > > > > I have had a very interesting and informative dialogue going with Nick > Tullis who is a first person immigrant and lived through the mess real time > in the 1900s. He is certainly an eye witness expert on this, but I disagree > with him that your "native tongue" determines your "ethnicity" which then > becomes tangled into what your genetic makeup reveals and what informs your > personal "identity". Your story and many others described on this list as > well as my own, informs this discussion totally. After your description of > your conversation with your Grandmother, correct me if I am wrong...which > happens often :).....your Grandmother was referring satirically to the fact > that in the territories of the Banat, the safest and most inclusive identity > to have during her lifetime there was a political one...."we were all > 'Germans' then". > > > > It seems to me all the most recent discussion threads evidence a real time > probability that most folks in Eastern Europe during a 200 year or more > period were in fact a microcosm of like-minded people from all over greater > Europe and the Indian Peninsula who were seeking a peace and prosperity that > is universal. They were brave, liberty-loving people who had migrated to > the vast territories of the Hungarian and Russian Empires to be peaceful and > productive. When you look closely you come to discover that their > "ethnicity" hailed from a vast number of other areas, and their > "citizenship" was fragile at best and in constant flux. Just the huge > variety of different dialects, recipe differences, religious traditions, > education attitudes, and flat-out languages where sometimes one Village > group could not understand the language of the Village folk right next to > them, speaks to that fact and informs it. > > > > None of what I have just said DIMINISHES what anyone then "thought or > identified" themselves as, but rather I believe makes the whole story far > richer and much more interesting! I believe the appropriateness of a > collective identity called "Donauschwaben" does not describe "Germans", but > rather a vastly complex and exciting grouping of people with the SAMEness of > ideal and tradition...that is... great food, wonderful and loving "Village" > > identity, the best parts of a "Migration" to something better psyche, and a > courage and strength that is both unusual collectively and magnificent > individually. > > > > There was no braver person on this earth than my Grandmother! And she was > born a Hungarian, lived as a mixed "German,Serb,Hungarian, Russian, Italian, > French, Croat", spoke 4 languages and then added English, figured out the > best of the Eastern European ethnicity, was genetically a mixed Caucasian > and practiced 3 different religious affiliations during her lifetime. > > Then...she became an American. Don't know what you call that, but I call it > Fabulous!! > > > > Karen. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Diane Halas" < <mailto:dvhalas@comcast.net> dvhalas@comcast.net> > > To: "'John Schambre'" < <mailto:jfschambre@comcast.net> > jfschambre@comcast.net>; "'Eileen Simcox'" > > < <mailto:easimcox@gmail.com> easimcox@gmail.com> > > Cc: < <mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:51 AM > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results > > > > > >> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. > >> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > >> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher > >> who > >> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > >> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified > >> their > >> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > >> and > >> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > >> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > >> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > > >> Diane > > >> Diane Halas > >> 239-592-9969 > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: <mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com> > donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > >> [ <mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com> > mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John > >> Schambre > >> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2014 4:52 PM > >> To: Eileen Simcox > >> Cc: <mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results > > >> Hi Eileen: > > >> Found your DNA story interesting as mine showed up as a big surprise too. > >> My grandparents came to the US in 1914 from Wiesenhaid and they always > >> told > >> me 'we are German' period! I never heard of anything about ancestors in > >> France, etc. But when I did my DNA the real surprise came: It shows that > > >> I > >> am: 1/3 British Isles, 1/3 Northern European and 1/3 Southern European - > >> which, according to Ancestry.com info means Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc. > > >> I didn't believe it either, so I had my my aunt and my sister take the > >> tests > >> too - their results came out very similar to mine, except for the Southern > >> European. So, I had my mother do her DNA. Her father was Hungarian from > >> the start - so I thought, but he had quite dark skin and now that I know > >> there were all sorts of people living in Hungary in the 1800's I suspect > >> my > >> maternal grandfather had either Italian, Greek or possibly even Turkish > >> blood in him and I'm nearly certain that is where my Southern European > >> roots > >> come from. > > >> Now, the British Isles really stumped me until a research told me that the > >> name Chambre is very common in Ireland and england as far back as the > >> 1300's!! I still have not confirmed that I had relatives from that area > >> but > >> I'm looking into it and, in fact, on Ancestry.com I was researching > >> English > >> records and hit upon a Chambre from the mid-late 1400's who was named as > >> primary physician to King Kenry the 8th!! I laughed, thinking that I > >> might > >> have had a famous relaltive -- but that is going WAY back in time and I'll > >> need a lot more than one document to make me believe he is of my family. > > >> So, especially if you are from the Alsace-Lorraine area, you may indeed > >> have > >> British blood in your line since I was advised that many French lived in > >> Ireland and England back in those days. Oh, if only we could go back in > >> time just to look and see for ourselves where we came from :-)) Don't > >> worry > >> too much though - at least for me I find the different DNA readings to be > >> interesting but in my mind and heart I still believe my Grandfather: We > >> are > >> German! Period! :-)) > > >> All the best in your research. > >> John > > > >> John F. Schambre > >> San Francisco, CA > > > > >> On Apr 27, 2014, at 12:11 PM, Eileen Simcox < <mailto:easimcox@gmail.com> > easimcox@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> Hi Everyone, > > >>> I find the conversation regarding the history fascinating. I joined > >>> DVHH several years ago, but I thought it was a yearly subscription? > >>> I've never gotten a yearly notice to "re-up my membership"? So, I've > >>> felt guilty about posting in the emails, as if I am eavesdropping? I > >>> would be happy to pay an annual fee, if that is what is required . . . > > >>> Many of you found my paternal line in the Familienbuch Kernei in der > >>> Batschka (which I now own also). In my maternal line, three of my four > >>> grandmothers are descended from the Luther line, also German. > > >>> I recently had my DNA tested from ancestry.com and my results which > >>> should have been "heavily German" were: Great Britain 72%, > >>> Italy/Greece 9%, Europe West 9%, Trace Regions 14%. I was so upset at > >>> the results! I am German!!! I am trying to find a way to either justify > >> the results or negate them . . . > >>> I recently heard a story on NPR from a black man whose DNA indicated > >>> that he had 0% African. Has anyone else had this experience with DNA > >> testing? > > >>> Also, I am grateful for all of the recipes. My grandmother was a > >>> fantastic cook and I so regret not learning the family recipes from > >>> her. I find the recipes talked about here are what I remember eating > >>> at her house. I especially regret not learning how to pull the strudel > >>> dough for poppy seed strudel! :( > > >>> Thank you, > >>> Eileen Gauder Simcox > > > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> <mailto:DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > >>> message > > > > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> <mailto:DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> <mailto:DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > <mailto:DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message