Danke Rose, i was born in Gross Betschkerek now Serbien , i live in the U S A . my Mother was also born in Gross Betschkerek my Father in Karlsdorf , yes i wrote a Book, IT IS PUBLISHED BY AMAZON , UNDER THE NAME KRUSCHEVLJE CONCENTRATION CAMP FOR GERMAN - YUGOSLAVS AFTER WORLD WAR II. MY MOTHER HER MOTHER[ SHE DIED IN KRUSCHEVLJE ] with my 2 SISTERS . my MOTHER 2 SISTERS AND ME WHERE LUCKY WE WHERE TAKEN A CROSS TO HUNGARY .in the beginning of 1947 .there is much more in the Book , most of what we went true because we where German . best wishes to the List you Rose thanks for the Welcome . Therese . On May 7, 2014, at 3:46 PM, Rose Vetter wrote: > Herzlich willkommen, Therese! A warm welcome to our group! I was born in Neusatz (Novi-Sad) in the Batschka and now live in Canada; my parents were born in Palanka and Neu-Futok. You say you wrote a book about your experiences. Has it been published? I hope you can share your experiences with us. > > Best wishes, > Rose > > > On 5 May 2014 18:46, therese schmidt <trherschas@yahoo.com> wrote: > may i intrudes myself Therese Schmidt and live in the U S A, i,m new here. > i follow this List for more them 7 Years, and find it very interesting , > my Mother was born in Gross Betschkerek Banat in 1912 , she used to say > she was Austria- Hungary Born. she was very prod of it .she spoke > German , Hungarian, Serbian, i can not recall my Parent say we where > Schwaben, maybe we where not old enough to understand > we where told our Family Tree goes way back > to Elsa's Lothtringen [ if this is Spelt right] we only spoke German every where > .i even Wrote a Book , on what we went true > because we where German .i,m very Proud of it > thanks to the List , and every one. > Therese > > > On May 5, 2014, at 5:09 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: > > > Hello John, > > > > > > > > That's partly the way I understood it too. At first, I thought all settlers came down the Danube on Ulmer Schachtels. Then I found the church books from my mothers hometown, and my preconcieved notions changed. From what I have noticed, is that some definitely did come from Germany. But, others also came from within the Austro Hungarian Empire. This is why some families are not listed in the Stader books. They did not need to register because they were moving within the country they already lived. > > > > > > > > In the Pancevo region of Banat, I have found settlers from the regions of Germany, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, and Italy, France, and Romania. The names of these regions were different at that time. I listed it this way for our modern visual understanding. > > > > > > > > These people settled in towns and, a couple generations later, became Schwaben. They were treated as one ethnic group.... by each other, Germany, and Yugoslavia. And, from what I understand, this is the reason the term Donauschwaben came to be used (just not by our ancestors). It was an attempt to describe the various ethnic groups that settled in the Pannonian Basin. > > > > > > > > I do not know any other way to explain what I found in the church books other than to say that there was more than one type of migration pattern. People then, just as people now, will travel to better their economic propects. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > Rita > > > > Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: jmmkorn@cox.net > >> To: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; danielashowley@aol.com > >> Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 13:18:06 -0700 > >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > >> > >> In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > >> anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I > >> have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > >> trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember > >> this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > >> impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term > >> in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I > >> have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of > >> immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > >> nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > >> Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was > >> that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > >> assembly point > >> in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area > >> of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to > >> result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be > >> 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle > >> and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but > >> also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying > >> to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my > >> perspective from here in Arizona. > >> > >> Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > >> thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > >> > >> John J. Kornfeind > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > >> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > >> To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > >> <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > >> > >>> > >>> I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > >>> discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. History is > >>> not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were > >>> cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > >>> Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > >>> There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and cannot > >>> always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is > >>> inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all have a > >>> right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > >>> > >>> > >>> Daniela Ivkovic Showley > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > >>> > >>> < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great to > >>> get > >>> your detailed and supported opinions. > >>> But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > >>> openly and > >>> completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. > >>> > >>> If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > >>> comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > >>>> Catch ya later. > >>>> Karen. > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >>> > >>>> Jody and Karen, > >>>> > >>>> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > >>>> really > >>>> like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And > >>>> that > >>>> preferably before any further public debate. > >>>> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > >>>> is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > >>>> that > >>>> the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they have > >>>> a > >>>> language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. > >>>> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > >>>> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the > >>>> DS > >>>> were not essentially a German group. > >>>> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because reality > >>>> interferes. > >>>> > >>>> Take care, > >>>> Nick > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Barb: A really good book to get that will begin to sort all those questions and then actually clarify and answer some would be "World War I: by H.P Willmott", pub. in USA by Dorling Kindersley Pub. Inc., A Penguin Company. First Ed. 2003. It is an excellently illustrated compendium of all things about WWI, including the "who was who" geographically. For a complete catalog of what this publisher offers see www.dk.com. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barb D" <bbd2424@gmail.com> To: "Paula" <kandhkiely@rogers.com>; <aztec2564@verizon.net>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 2:48 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish .... > Hi Paula, > Why would your father have served in the Yugoslavian army, if he lived in > Austria - Hungary? > I get so confused about all these places & armies. > My gfather was born in what I believe to be Romania at that time BRATTAN > 1896. > He served in some army from somewhere between 1911 to 1918. He was wounded > in Italy in about > 1916 0r17 and returned home after spending much time in a hospital in > Italy > abt. 1918. > Two things: some one told me he would have been in the Hunargian army. Why > if it was romania or did it change to Austria-Hungary by then? > I know my Mom always said that they were from Austria-Hungary, but she was > born in Aug 1919 and the romania troops had just moved in to Temeswar. > 2nd: Is it possible that when my gfather was wounded that they would have > kept him as a prisoner or would they have sent him home when he was well > enough? > So many question! > Thanks , > Barb D. > -----Original Message----- > From: Paula > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 1:21 PM > To: aztec2564@verizon.net ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish .... > > HI Joe: > > I think my family said they were German because who on earth knows/knew > what > the Shwovish were. Also the fact that your family was in the > contentration > camp in Gakowa? Why Gakowa and not Krusevlje since Krusevlje was where > you and your family lived? > > As for my father, he was born in Austria/Hungary, served in the > Yugoslavian > army, was also drafted into the German army and while in the Yugoslavian > and > German army, he was a British subject and held Canadian citizenship. > It really didn't matter what citizenship he held. His final resting place > was in the Ukraine. > > Helga. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aztec2564@verizon.net > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 9:10 AM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish .... > > > My Father, Josef Hutflus and my Grand Parents Felix and Sabina > Hutflus,born > in Krusevlje, Yugoslavia considered themselves German. > > They spoke German and taught us German growing up. Some of my Family > Hutflus > members were put in the Gakova Death camps and starved or killed because > they were German by Tito's partisans, " not because they were considered > Yugoslavian." > > My family Hutflus were drafted into the German Army, because they were > considered German by the German Government. > > My Hutflus family escaped during the night to Hungary, stayed there for > a > month or 2 then went to Austria, because they were German. > > I consider myself German-American, just as others consider themselves > African-American, Irish-American, French-Canadian, etc. > > Joseph Hutflus > New Jersey, USA.... > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sorry Barb for the confusion. My father was born in Ridjica, in the Batschka area and this part became Yugoslavia after WWI. Also, this is a new computer, and I know the messages say from "Paula" - she is my daughter and I don't know how her name appears. I have lots to learn on this thing and will have to somehow delete her name. I had someone else ask me if my computer had been tampered with because her name appears in all my emails. Yes, the army that they served in during WWI was indeed the Hungarian army. I believe that area was called the Kingdom on Hungary. I have photos of my grandfather in a Hungarian uniform and my great grandfather also in a Hungarian uniform. My grandfather was captured and became a prisioner of war. He was in a POW camp in Russia. After the Czar was put in exile, all POWS were released and my grandfather had to find his own way back. His stories were so interesting. My paternal grandfather was also in the Hungarian army and he didn't have much good too say. He said that they nearly starved to death. The main meal was cabbage soup on a daily basis. Not much else was in the soup besides cabbage. I don't know the answers to your number 1 and 2 question, but I am positive that several members do. So Anne Dreer, can you answer this for Barb? Helga -----Original Message----- From: Barb D Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 2:48 PM To: Paula ; aztec2564@verizon.net ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish .... Hi Paula, Why would your father have served in the Yugoslavian army, if he lived in Austria - Hungary? I get so confused about all these places & armies. My gfather was born in what I believe to be Romania at that time BRATTAN 1896. He served in some army from somewhere between 1911 to 1918. He was wounded in Italy in about 1916 0r17 and returned home after spending much time in a hospital in Italy abt. 1918. Two things: some one told me he would have been in the Hunargian army. Why if it was romania or did it change to Austria-Hungary by then? I know my Mom always said that they were from Austria-Hungary, but she was born in Aug 1919 and the romania troops had just moved in to Temeswar. 2nd: Is it possible that when my gfather was wounded that they would have kept him as a prisoner or would they have sent him home when he was well enough? So many question! Thanks , Barb D. -----Original Message----- From: Paula Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 1:21 PM To: aztec2564@verizon.net ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish .... HI Joe: I think my family said they were German because who on earth knows/knew what the Shwovish were. Also the fact that your family was in the contentration camp in Gakowa? Why Gakowa and not Krusevlje since Krusevlje was where you and your family lived? As for my father, he was born in Austria/Hungary, served in the Yugoslavian army, was also drafted into the German army and while in the Yugoslavian and German army, he was a British subject and held Canadian citizenship. It really didn't matter what citizenship he held. His final resting place was in the Ukraine. Helga. -----Original Message----- From: aztec2564@verizon.net Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 9:10 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish .... My Father, Josef Hutflus and my Grand Parents Felix and Sabina Hutflus,born in Krusevlje, Yugoslavia considered themselves German. They spoke German and taught us German growing up. Some of my Family Hutflus members were put in the Gakova Death camps and starved or killed because they were German by Tito's partisans, " not because they were considered Yugoslavian." My family Hutflus were drafted into the German Army, because they were considered German by the German Government. My Hutflus family escaped during the night to Hungary, stayed there for a month or 2 then went to Austria, because they were German. I consider myself German-American, just as others consider themselves African-American, Irish-American, French-Canadian, etc. Joseph Hutflus New Jersey, USA.... _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is why I always say our Schwaben history is very confusing. My maiden name is Ivkovic. That is a Serbian surname. Once upon a time, the Ivkovic's were Serbs. The story goes that when my dad's great-great-great grandfather was born in Slavonia he was very sick and not expected to live til morning. It was winter and snowing. His mother had to get him baptized, to not baptize the child before dying was not acceptable. The Serbian Orthodox Church was empty. Closed. So they frantically rode in their horse drawn wagon to the next closest church. It was open, the priest was there. It was Roman Catholic. They baptized their baby in a Catholic church. Miraculously the child did not die. And from that day forward the Ivkovic family changed their religion. Once they changed from Orthodox to Catholic, Once they changed their religion they automatically became Croation. Another poster mentioned that he was under the impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term in explaining nationality. That it was through various waves of immigrants over decades, of various nationalities, that became Donauschwaben. I agree 100% with this. Perhaps I should not consider my nationality Donauschwaben. I do this because it is what I feel best describes my nationality. I feel Donauschwaben. It is much easier for me to say and identify myself as Donauschwaben and I believe much more accurate than the alternative. Which would be on my father's side I am Serbian, Croatian, & Austrian and on my mother's side who lived in Banat, I am French, since her family come from Alsace-Lorraine. But they all spoke German, Schwowisch. It was their mother tongue always. And I speak it too. Daniela Ivkovic Showley -----Original Message----- From: Harold <bhbrat24@q.com> Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 3:26 pm Hi everyone, When I first joined DVHH many years ago a member said my name was not German, it sounded Slavic. This at first upset me. After while I discovered many others were the same. My ancestors entered Hungary in the late 1690's and have been there ever since, until my Granddad came to the USA in 1905 and Grandmom in 1907. The original Bratsko's came from Mähren. They considered themselves German and spoke German. My Father spoke it until he passed away in 2005, at 93. You are what you feel you are. The towns were Biled and Kleinsiedel ,largely German population. I am what I am. I am very proud to consider myself Donauschwabian. Harold Bratsko ----- Original Message ----- From: ffs1@cogeco.ca Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:59:14 PM I was just trying to put some levity into the conversation. Frank - Windsor On 5/4/2014 3:55 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: > Thank you Frank. I'm about 40% German, 40% Hungarian, and 20% Croatian, Romanian, maybe Czech, and Serbian. Most of Jabuka is some version of that because we are all in one way or another related. What does that mean? 100% Donauschwaben!!! > > Rita from Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > Sent from my Windows Phone

HI Joe: I think my family said they were German because who on earth knows/knew what the Shwovish were. Also the fact that your family was in the contentration camp in Gakowa? Why Gakowa and not Krusevlje since Krusevlje was where you and your family lived? As for my father, he was born in Austria/Hungary, served in the Yugoslavian army, was also drafted into the German army and while in the Yugoslavian and German army, he was a British subject and held Canadian citizenship. It really didn't matter what citizenship he held. His final resting place was in the Ukraine. Helga. -----Original Message----- From: aztec2564@verizon.net Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 9:10 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish .... My Father, Josef Hutflus and my Grand Parents Felix and Sabina Hutflus,born in Krusevlje, Yugoslavia considered themselves German. They spoke German and taught us German growing up. Some of my Family Hutflus members were put in the Gakova Death camps and starved or killed because they were German by Tito's partisans, " not because they were considered Yugoslavian." My family Hutflus were drafted into the German Army, because they were considered German by the German Government. My Hutflus family escaped during the night to Hungary, stayed there for a month or 2 then went to Austria, because they were German. I consider myself German-American, just as others consider themselves African-American, Irish-American, French-Canadian, etc. Joseph Hutflus New Jersey, USA.... _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Paula, Why would your father have served in the Yugoslavian army, if he lived in Austria - Hungary? I get so confused about all these places & armies. My gfather was born in what I believe to be Romania at that time BRATTAN 1896. He served in some army from somewhere between 1911 to 1918. He was wounded in Italy in about 1916 0r17 and returned home after spending much time in a hospital in Italy abt. 1918. Two things: some one told me he would have been in the Hunargian army. Why if it was romania or did it change to Austria-Hungary by then? I know my Mom always said that they were from Austria-Hungary, but she was born in Aug 1919 and the romania troops had just moved in to Temeswar. 2nd: Is it possible that when my gfather was wounded that they would have kept him as a prisoner or would they have sent him home when he was well enough? So many question! Thanks , Barb D. -----Original Message----- From: Paula Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 1:21 PM To: aztec2564@verizon.net ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish .... HI Joe: I think my family said they were German because who on earth knows/knew what the Shwovish were. Also the fact that your family was in the contentration camp in Gakowa? Why Gakowa and not Krusevlje since Krusevlje was where you and your family lived? As for my father, he was born in Austria/Hungary, served in the Yugoslavian army, was also drafted into the German army and while in the Yugoslavian and German army, he was a British subject and held Canadian citizenship. It really didn't matter what citizenship he held. His final resting place was in the Ukraine. Helga. -----Original Message----- From: aztec2564@verizon.net Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 9:10 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish .... My Father, Josef Hutflus and my Grand Parents Felix and Sabina Hutflus,born in Krusevlje, Yugoslavia considered themselves German. They spoke German and taught us German growing up. Some of my Family Hutflus members were put in the Gakova Death camps and starved or killed because they were German by Tito's partisans, " not because they were considered Yugoslavian." My family Hutflus were drafted into the German Army, because they were considered German by the German Government. My Hutflus family escaped during the night to Hungary, stayed there for a month or 2 then went to Austria, because they were German. I consider myself German-American, just as others consider themselves African-American, Irish-American, French-Canadian, etc. Joseph Hutflus New Jersey, USA.... _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Herzlich willkommen, Therese! A warm welcome to our group! I was born in Neusatz (Novi-Sad) in the Batschka and now live in Canada; my parents were born in Palanka and Neu-Futok. You say you wrote a book about your experiences. Has it been published? I hope you can share your experiences with us. Best wishes, Rose On 5 May 2014 18:46, therese schmidt <trherschas@yahoo.com> wrote: > may i intrudes myself Therese Schmidt and live in the U S A, i,m new > here. > i follow this List for more them 7 Years, and find it very > interesting , > my Mother was born in Gross Betschkerek Banat in 1912 , she used to > say > she was Austria- Hungary Born. she was very prod of it .she spoke > German , Hungarian, Serbian, i can not recall my Parent say we where > Schwaben, maybe we where not old enough to understand > we where told our Family Tree goes way back > to Elsa's Lothtringen [ if this is Spelt right] we only spoke German > every where > .i even Wrote a Book , on what we went true > because we where German .i,m very Proud of it > thanks to the List , and every one. > Therese > > > On May 5, 2014, at 5:09 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: > > > Hello John, > > > > > > > > That's partly the way I understood it too. At first, I thought all > settlers came down the Danube on Ulmer Schachtels. Then I found the church > books from my mothers hometown, and my preconcieved notions changed. From > what I have noticed, is that some definitely did come from Germany. But, > others also came from within the Austro Hungarian Empire. This is why some > families are not listed in the Stader books. They did not need to register > because they were moving within the country they already lived. > > > > > > > > In the Pancevo region of Banat, I have found settlers from the regions > of Germany, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, and Italy, France, and > Romania. The names of these regions were different at that time. I listed > it this way for our modern visual understanding. > > > > > > > > These people settled in towns and, a couple generations later, became > Schwaben. They were treated as one ethnic group.... by each other, > Germany, and Yugoslavia. And, from what I understand, this is the reason > the term Donauschwaben came to be used (just not by our ancestors). It was > an attempt to describe the various ethnic groups that settled in the > Pannonian Basin. > > > > > > > > I do not know any other way to explain what I found in the church books > other than to say that there was more than one type of migration pattern. > People then, just as people now, will travel to better their economic > propects. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > Rita > > > > Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: jmmkorn@cox.net > >> To: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; danielashowley@aol.com > >> Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 13:18:06 -0700 > >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > Citizenship > >> > >> In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > >> anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but > I > >> have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have > been > >> trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not > remember > >> this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > >> impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive > term > >> in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the > readings I > >> have done, I was left with the impression that through the various > waves of > >> immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > >> nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > >> Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought > was > >> that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > >> assembly point > >> in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the > area > >> of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately > to > >> result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to > be > >> 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to > settle > >> and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but > >> also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not > trying > >> to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my > >> perspective from here in Arizona. > >> > >> Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > >> thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > >> > >> John J. Kornfeind > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > >> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > >> To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > >> <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > Citizenship > >> > >>> > >>> I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > >>> discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. > History is > >>> not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were > >>> cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the > chisel. > >>> Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > >>> There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot > >>> always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is > >>> inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all > have a > >>> right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > >>> > >>> > >>> Daniela Ivkovic Showley > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > >>> > >>> < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great > to > >>> get > >>> your detailed and supported opinions. > >>> But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > >>> openly and > >>> completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. > >>> > >>> If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > >>> comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > >>>> Catch ya later. > >>>> Karen. > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >>> > >>>> Jody and Karen, > >>>> > >>>> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > >>>> really > >>>> like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And > >>>> that > >>>> preferably before any further public debate. > >>>> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > >>>> is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > >>>> that > >>>> the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they > have > >>>> a > >>>> language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a > history. > >>>> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > >>>> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that > the > >>>> DS > >>>> were not essentially a German group. > >>>> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because > reality > >>>> interferes. > >>>> > >>>> Take care, > >>>> Nick > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I've had my DNA tested through Ancestry.  Wouldn't it be great if more of the DVHH group also tested?  I bet we would find quite a few cousins in the group! Barb C

Hi Susan, If your mother spoke Low German, I presume she came from northern Germany or the Netherlands, or any of the countries where people from those countries had migrated to, such as Poland or Russia. Low German, or Plattdeutsch, is what the term implies: flat, meaning from the lowlands. As this dialect has its origins in the Saxon language, it does to a certain extent sound more English than German. I experienced that firsthand when we arrived in Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) as refugees. At that time, Plattdeutsch was still widely used in the villages. We thought we were in another country and our people were quite bewildered, saying "They're speaking English here." Although we as children learnt it quickly, the older generation had a tough time adjusting to it. To give you a small example, when people would ask for the time, they would say, "Wat is de clock?" -- No need to translate that! The term "High German" has two meanings. Nowadays it is used mainly for the standard accepted language, such as Oxford English for the English language. Originally, however, the term defined the south and central German dialects, meaning the language spoken in the mountainous and hilly regions. As to the Schwowisch dialect, it varied from one village to another, depending on the regions the settlers originated from, and developed over time with the addition of Serbo-Croation, Hungarian, Romanian words, all depending on where they settled. Schwowisch also included a considerable number of French words that were brought from Alsace and Lorraine. Rose On 7 May 2014 07:40, SusanM <soozn_6@yahoo.com> wrote: > Is Shwovish German very different than low German? My mother said they > spoke low German, and I think it's the dialect most closely related to > English. Whatever that says. And so they spoke Shwovish, did that develop > in Eastern Europe, or did some people come there already speaking it? Now > that they have returned to Germany, are they speaking differently there > than the main population? > > Susan M > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear All, What you say Diane is exactly right. When I speak of my family and ancestors, I always refer to them as "pioneers" no different than the pioneers who settled the vast lands of America. Strong, hard-working, responsible citizens of the world, who, out of the love of life, family and their God looked for opportunities to love, live and take care of their families. This is how I remember my parents, aunts, uncles and grandparents. Take strength from their courage and hope to be as strong as they were. They were _Definitely_ survivors! With the greatest respect to all, Justine Barth Zentner ( immigrant from Croatia, born in a DP camp, citizen of USA) On 5/5/2014 9:55 PM, Diane Halas wrote: > It seems to me that the Banat of the 18th and early 19th century was the America of the late 19th and early 20th century - a great big area of opportunity for people looking for a better life or their own land. But because of the political landscape and the building of designated immigrant villages, it never quite became a true melting pot. There were always people defined "others" , just as there are now. Official language changes altered names and spellings. Many last names are only residual of earliest ancestors; others show direct lines of descent. Ethnicity became diluted; nationality changed; allegiance and identification shifted. Parallels? One may as well ask, "What is an American?" > > Diane > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

My father was born when it was Austro Hungary, it changed shortly there after. When he became of age he served his country - which was Yugoslavia. In 41 he was conscripted back into the Yugoslavish army and was in Belgrade when it was bombed. He thought he was done with war then and moved to the village of Indija and set up house with mom and his first child. Shortly after he was told he was back in the military - by German military - because he was part German and part Hungarian and had served for Yugoslavia this surprised him, but he went and served because that was what he was told to do. He was fortunate as he was railroad protection and didn't have to go far from home. Now onto language - and none of this is expert opinion - just personal experience/opinion. My father spoke 7 languages because of the diverse area he lived in. I realized with time that many of those languages were very similar. English was probably his worst language LOL. It seemed to us kids that in times of stress it was Serb/Croatian he seemed to revert to - after his stroke in 85 the only one who could understand him for a few days was mom. Because of this we always thought that was his "first" language. Jump ahead 20 years and he struggled to remember Serb words and was speaking almost entirely German. I was totally fascinated - the human mind and how it works. I am very thankful that even though my parents lost all of their possesions - including the 15 joche of land, new home and farm animals in Indija, they were able to escape and not suffer the loss of each other or close family members. Eve On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, <aztec2564@verizon.net> wrote: > > My Father, Josef Hutflus and my Grand Parents Felix and Sabina > Hutflus,born > in Krusevlje, Yugoslavia considered themselves German. > > They spoke German and taught us German growing up. Some of my Family > Hutflus > members were put in the Gakova Death camps and starved or killed because > they were German by Tito's partisans, " not because they were considered > Yugoslavian." > > My family Hutflus were drafted into the German Army, because they were > considered German by the German Government. > > My Hutflus family escaped during the night to Hungary, stayed there for > a > month or 2 then went to Austria, because they were German. > > I consider myself German-American, just as others consider themselves > African-American, Irish-American, French-Canadian, etc. > > Joseph Hutflus > New Jersey, USA.... > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

That was beautiful Rose, and thank you for sharing for Joe's sake as well as others that are dealing with this everyday of their lives. Eve On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 12:08 AM, Rose Vetter <rosevetter@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Joe, > > > On May 3rd you posted to the list: “My parents also never spoke about > being Shwovish to anyone outside the family, but a large part of that was > being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa (my mother and I) or being sent > to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us interned, it was > a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never wanted to talk > about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we could. The > second generation seems to think that this experience is something we > wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > started with strangers." > > Today you wrote: "It is unfortunate that DVHH offers no guidance to the > successor generations about these symptoms of the events, because the > effects linger and reverberate in successive generations. It is even more > unfortunate when those with the courage to reveal their symptoms are > attacked and ridiculed." > > I take it that by "successor generations" you mean the researchers who want > to know what happened to our people during and after World War II. Forgive > me if I don’t quite understand you, but your two statements seem to > contradict one another. On the one hand, you did not want to discuss your > experiences, but in the second statement you say that the DVHH “offers no > guidance about these symptoms of the events…” > > If you feel that anyone on the list ridiculed you, please forgive them and > consider that in the heat of discussions like these, feelings run very > deep, especially for those of us of the “Erlebnisgeneration” (experience > generation) - When I posted about my grandparents’ and relatives' ordeal, I > broke out in tears, and this 70 years later. I’m sure most people would > love to take back some rash words blurted out in the heat of the moment and > say mea culpa – I know I have many times. > > > > The DVHH is sincerely sympathetic to anyone dealing with PTSD, even those > who have it second-hand. According to this article (link below), “When > PTSD transfers from the battlefield to the home, this disorder quickly > becomes a family affair. So set an extra plate at dinner tonight; PTSD is > joining you. One of the things I hear time and time again is that > Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is an isolated condition. If you think > that's true, you're not alone; I used to be one of those people. But when > I began working with veterans, I discovered something profound: PTSD > affects every person in the sufferer's life, from spouses to children to > extended family to friends. Second-hand trauma is real, and if it lingers > untreated, can be just as scarring as having PTSD yourself. For children, > the exposure to PTSD is especially toxic."" > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-cypers-kamen-ma/ptsd-veterans-family_b_2505624.html > > PTSD is a family affair and when a member of the family suffers, the whole > family suffers. Joe, your battlefield was the expulsion and > internment/enslavement of you and your family. We in your extended > “Schwowisch” > family feel your pain and we support you. But don’t think that a genealogy > mail list, website or a Facebook group is equipped to deal with PTSD, > depression, mental illness, etc. Talk to your family and share your > feelings with them. Don’t torture yourself any longer and please seek > professional counselling. You owe it to yourself, your family and your > descendants. Please accept this in the spirit it is given. > > > > Sincerely, > > Rose > > > > > > > On 6 May 2014 17:16, Rita Schiwanowitsch <schiwanore@msn.com> wrote: > > > > > > http://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article122488828/Psychische-Belastung-wirkt-sich-auf-die-Enkel-aus.html > > Hi Joe... > > Found this interesting article a while ago. It is an article in German > > that explains how trauma can be passed down to successive generations. > > Rita > > > > > From: psotka@msn.com > > > To: joepsotka@gmail.com; kandhkiely@rogers.com; rosevetter@gmail.com > > > Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 14:18:47 -0400 > > > CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Survivor Trauma, Fear, lifelong anxiety, > depression, > > shame, PTSD, and Genocide > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Survivor Trauma, Fear, > > > lifelong anxiety, depression, shame, PTSD, and Genocide > > > > > > > > > If the Shwovish internment > > > occurred today, it would be followed by massive counseling and > > psychological > > > interventions to prevent all the well known consequences of fear and > > > helplessness > > > > > > > > > An examination of > > > approximately 5,000 long-term psychiatric inpatients in Israel > > identified about > > > 900 Holocaust survivors, and extraordinarily large number. How many > > Shwovish survivors of the camps have > > > unnecessarily suffered nightmares, panic > > > attacks, depression, and even more serious psychological psychoses is > > unknown > > > but certain to exist in large numbers. > > > My own family bears the scars of witness. These patients were not > > > treated as unique: trauma-related illnesses were neglected in diagnosis > > and in decades-long > > > treatment. I hypothesize that many of these patients could have avoided > > > lengthy if not life-long psychiatric hospitalizations, had they been > > able or > > > enabled by their treaters and by society at large to more openly share > > their > > > severe persecution history. > > > > > > > > > The importance of > > > re-living these traumatic events and sharing them with sympathetic > > others is a > > > cornerstone of modern therapeutic processes. > > > A therapeutic intervention such as video testimony or simply writing a > > > blog of the experience is a step forward > > > that helps build a narrative for the traumatic experience and gives it > a > > > coherent expression that helps in > > > alleviating its symptoms and changing its course. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course those of us > > > who survived the camps had no such help, and worse still emigrated to > > countries > > > like Austria and Germany that were largely destroyed and suffering > > greatly from > > > the war. Those unlucky enough not to > > > escape the camps were forced into additional forced labor for three > more > > years > > > before they could reasonably escape. > > > Their traumatic experiences and traumatic events, from the helplessness > > of a mother who could > > > not feed her children; to the helplessness of children who saw their > > grandparents > > > starve to death before their eyes, were everywhere; and fear > > > was a constant of their lives for years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Research on PTSD has > > > shown that it is not necessary to have faced fear of death to develop > > the many > > > parts of the PTSD syndrome: anxiety, depression, flashbacks, intense > > distress, > > > suicidal thoughts, feelings of distrust and paranoia, detachment and > > emotional numbness, > > > and yes, guilt, shame, and self-blame. > > > > > > > > > (see > > > http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm > > > > > > > > > And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptsd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The camps and slave > > > labor were especially traumatic, as was the whole experience of > > supporting the > > > Russian army in those areas of the Batschka along the prolonged > fighting > > in the > > > Fall of 1944; but the escapees in the treks out of the region suffered > > their > > > own fears and trauma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is unfortunate that > > > DVHH offers no guidance to the successor generations about these > > symptoms of > > > the events, because the effects linger and reverberate in successive > > > generations. > > > > > > > > > It is even more > > > unfortunate when those with the courage to reveal their symptoms are > > attacked > > > and ridiculed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Laub, D. "Kann die Psychoanalyse dazu beitragen, > > > den Volkermord historisch besser zu verstehen?" ("Can Psychoanalysts > > Enhance Historical > > > Understanding of Genocide"), Psyche-Z. Psychoanal 57, 2003. > > > > > > > > > Neugebauer, R et al > > > (2009).Post‐traumatic stress reactions among Rwandan children and > > adolescents > > > in the early aftermath of genocide. International Journal of > > Epidemiology. • > > > Electronic publication—ahead of print. Newbury, C & Baldwin, H (2000, > > > July). Aftermath: Women's organizations in post‐conflict Rwanda. > > Retrieved July > > > 6, 2009, from U.S. Agency for International Development Web site: > > http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNACJ324.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.aaanet.org/sections/spa/?page_id=326 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Genocide and Mass > > > Violence: Memory, Symptom, and Intervention Center for the Study of > > Genocide > > > and Human Rights > > > > > > > > > Rutgers University > > > > > > > > > September 17-18, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Organizers: Alex > > > Hinton (Rutgers University) and Devon Hinton (Massachusetts General > > Hospital) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This interdisciplinary > > > conference included over 25 participants, including several > international > > > speakers, from psychological anthropology, medical anthropology, social > > > medicine, psychiatry, public health, and psychology. It examined the > > legacies > > > of genocide and mass violence on individuals and the social worlds in > > which > > > they live, with particular attention to the local processes of recovery > > from > > > that legacy. The workshop > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex Hinton > > > > > > > > > Transitional Justice: > > > Global Mechanisms and Local Realities after Genocide and Mass Violence > > > (Rutgers, 2010) > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > Joe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

My Father, Josef Hutflus and my Grand Parents Felix and Sabina Hutflus,born in Krusevlje, Yugoslavia considered themselves German. They spoke German and taught us German growing up. Some of my Family Hutflus members were put in the Gakova Death camps and starved or killed because they were German by Tito's partisans, " not because they were considered Yugoslavian." My family Hutflus were drafted into the German Army, because they were considered German by the German Government. My Hutflus family escaped during the night to Hungary, stayed there for a month or 2 then went to Austria, because they were German. I consider myself German-American, just as others consider themselves African-American, Irish-American, French-Canadian, etc. Joseph Hutflus New Jersey, USA.... _________________________________________________________________

Is Shwovish German very different than low German? My mother said they spoke low German, and I think it's the dialect most closely related to English. Whatever that says. And so they spoke Shwovish, did that develop in Eastern Europe, or did some people come there already speaking it? Now that they have returned to Germany, are they speaking differently there than the main population? Susan M

I would definitely appreciate it too. Tina ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schambre" <jfschambre@comcast.net> To: <schdan2@sasktel.net> Cc: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Grabatz family book > Hello Dana: I am interested in the freepages genealogy site you speak of > in your DVHH message. I've looked at Freepages but have a hard time > navigating and finding what I'm looking for. If you could point me to the > site with a web address that would be wonderful! Thanks > > John > > John F. Schambre > San Francisco > > > > > > On May 6, 2014, at 11:50 AM, schdan2@sasktel.net wrote: > >> >> >> Greetings to all >> >> I joined this site approximately 4 years ago and wasn't ever someone who >> posted a lot. I somehow got deleted from the list >> and so I listed again, got added and here I am. >> >> I was on a freepages genealoy site last week that lists people in the >> Hungarian infantry and where there home village was. >> >> Three men are listed with the last name of Rehm that came from Grabatz. >> Rehm is my mothers maiden name. I believe that one of these >> three men could be my great grandfathers father. I have been wanting to >> go back more generations from my ggf and so I ask, if anyone >> out there have a Grabatz family book, if they could look into these names >> and email me back, or the list, of each of these family members and >> children, >> wife, children and any other information that may be listed. >> >> Thanking you all in advance. >> >> Dana Schneider >> Saskatoon, SK. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- > Aucun virus trouve dans ce message. > Analyse effectuee par AVG - www.avg.fr > Version: 2013.0.3469 / Base de donnees virale: 3722/7448 - Date: > 06/05/2014 >

Hi Dana, I've checked all the REHM names in Grabatz and I'm afraid there are no matches for your ancestors. I've also checked the Lenauheim, Bogarosch, Gross Jetscha and Alexanderhausen family books and again there are no matches. Sorry to disappoint you. Maybe other people on the DVHH List could look up the REHM name in other village family books? Good luck! Diana -----Original Message----- From: schdan2@sasktel.net Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 8:45 PM To: schdan2@sasktel.net ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com ; Diana Subject: Re: [DVHH] Grabatz family book Hi Diana First of all I thank you for such a quick response. I will mention my great grandfather Johann Rehm, he was the youngest in the family of four boys, he was born on January 31, 1876. As the story goes his mother died in childbirth with him. He later moved to Canada in April of 1903. Another brother Hanns(likely just a variation of Johann) was born in May of 1873. He made a trip to the US in March of 1903, not sure what happened but filed for citizenship but said his move to the US was in October of 1909. What I am interested in is the names of his other two brothers, if they immigrated to Canada as well, and of course his parents names, birthdays, date of death and anything else that can be learned. Again I thank you Diana for the quick response. Dana On Tue, 6 May 2014 20:29:14 +0100, Diana <diana@villaflorida.co.uk> wrote: Hi Dana, > > There are 19 pages of REHM names in the Grabatz book, so if you could give > me as much info as you could on your own ancestors (names, dates), I will > scan the relevant pages for you. > Diana > > -----Original Message----- From: schdan2@sasktel.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 7:50 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DVHH] Grabatz family book > > > > Greetings to all > > I joined this site approximately 4 years ago and wasn't ever someone who > posted a lot. I somehow got deleted from the list > and so I listed again, got added and here I am. > I was on a freepages genealoy site last week that lists people in the > Hungarian infantry and where there home village was. > Three men are listed with the last name of Rehm that came from Grabatz. > Rehm is my mothers maiden name. I believe that one of these > three men could be my great grandfathers father. I have been wanting to go > back more generations from my ggf and so I ask, if anyone > out there have a Grabatz family book, if they could look into these names > and email me back, or the list, of each of these family members and > children, > wife, children and any other information that may be listed. > Thanking you all in advance. > Dana Schneider > Saskatoon, SK. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Thanks for the info about the DNA test. My family was flabbergasted when I found that "Vrbanac" is a very Croatian name though we are "German" from (supposedly) Bavaria via Austria-Hungary (Wrbanek is Americanized). My great grandfather who immigrated always thought of himself as German. And many people have assumed I'm Czech based on the name. John Wrbanek -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of robin pruter Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 12:16 PM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] Connecting to cousin through DNA Jody et al., I'm just catching up on this whole discussion, and I saw your comment about not knowing anyone who has connected to a living cousin through a genealogical DNA test with a connection that can also be verified through records. I have, but it's not in a DS branch of my family. I found a close cousin (half first cousin, once removed) that I'd never heard of, and the records bear it out. But that's a really close connection, and it's only because of illegitimacy and adoption that I'd never heard of him. I haven't been able to verify any of the more typical genealogical matches. As for DNA ethnicity, my results had my DS ancestry show up as German with a couple of trace elements (less than 1%)--one of Eastern Europe and one of West Asia. So, if there was intermarriage in my genetic history, it was very, very slight. As far as the whole nationality thing goes, my mother, instead of calling her grandparents by their names (e.g. Grandma Margaret or Grandma Svoboda), called her grandparents "German Grandma" and "Swedish Grandma." Her DS grandparents were simply German in everyone's minds, without any complex geographical, sociological, or historical thought about it. They considered themselves German (almost to a fault). They, along with a bunch of other immigrants from Gross Scham, moved to a suburb of Chicago with a large Bohemian population. Because they had a name of Bohemian origin (from a single Bohemian ancestor somewhere in the 18th century), they were often mistakenly thought of as Bohemian by their neighbors. They found this insulting--they were German, goshdarnit, not Slavs. They had a prejudice that being German was better than being Slav, a prejudice that probably came from growing up in the Banat with the enmity between the German and local Slav populations. Robin ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Joe, On May 3rd you posted to the list: “My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the family, but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa (my mother and I) or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we could. The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get started with strangers." Today you wrote: "It is unfortunate that DVHH offers no guidance to the successor generations about these symptoms of the events, because the effects linger and reverberate in successive generations. It is even more unfortunate when those with the courage to reveal their symptoms are attacked and ridiculed." I take it that by "successor generations" you mean the researchers who want to know what happened to our people during and after World War II. Forgive me if I don’t quite understand you, but your two statements seem to contradict one another. On the one hand, you did not want to discuss your experiences, but in the second statement you say that the DVHH “offers no guidance about these symptoms of the events…” If you feel that anyone on the list ridiculed you, please forgive them and consider that in the heat of discussions like these, feelings run very deep, especially for those of us of the “Erlebnisgeneration” (experience generation) - When I posted about my grandparents’ and relatives' ordeal, I broke out in tears, and this 70 years later. I’m sure most people would love to take back some rash words blurted out in the heat of the moment and say mea culpa – I know I have many times. The DVHH is sincerely sympathetic to anyone dealing with PTSD, even those who have it second-hand. According to this article (link below), “When PTSD transfers from the battlefield to the home, this disorder quickly becomes a family affair. So set an extra plate at dinner tonight; PTSD is joining you. One of the things I hear time and time again is that Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is an isolated condition. If you think that's true, you're not alone; I used to be one of those people. But when I began working with veterans, I discovered something profound: PTSD affects every person in the sufferer's life, from spouses to children to extended family to friends. Second-hand trauma is real, and if it lingers untreated, can be just as scarring as having PTSD yourself. For children, the exposure to PTSD is especially toxic."" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-cypers-kamen-ma/ptsd-veterans-family_b_2505624.html PTSD is a family affair and when a member of the family suffers, the whole family suffers. Joe, your battlefield was the expulsion and internment/enslavement of you and your family. We in your extended “Schwowisch” family feel your pain and we support you. But don’t think that a genealogy mail list, website or a Facebook group is equipped to deal with PTSD, depression, mental illness, etc. Talk to your family and share your feelings with them. Don’t torture yourself any longer and please seek professional counselling. You owe it to yourself, your family and your descendants. Please accept this in the spirit it is given. Sincerely, Rose On 6 May 2014 17:16, Rita Schiwanowitsch <schiwanore@msn.com> wrote: > > http://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article122488828/Psychische-Belastung-wirkt-sich-auf-die-Enkel-aus.html > Hi Joe... > Found this interesting article a while ago. It is an article in German > that explains how trauma can be passed down to successive generations. > Rita > > > From: psotka@msn.com > > To: joepsotka@gmail.com; kandhkiely@rogers.com; rosevetter@gmail.com > > Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 14:18:47 -0400 > > CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Survivor Trauma, Fear, lifelong anxiety, depression, > shame, PTSD, and Genocide > > > > > > > > > > Survivor Trauma, Fear, > > lifelong anxiety, depression, shame, PTSD, and Genocide > > > > > > If the Shwovish internment > > occurred today, it would be followed by massive counseling and > psychological > > interventions to prevent all the well known consequences of fear and > > helplessness > > > > > > An examination of > > approximately 5,000 long-term psychiatric inpatients in Israel > identified about > > 900 Holocaust survivors, and extraordinarily large number. How many > Shwovish survivors of the camps have > > unnecessarily suffered nightmares, panic > > attacks, depression, and even more serious psychological psychoses is > unknown > > but certain to exist in large numbers. > > My own family bears the scars of witness. These patients were not > > treated as unique: trauma-related illnesses were neglected in diagnosis > and in decades-long > > treatment. I hypothesize that many of these patients could have avoided > > lengthy if not life-long psychiatric hospitalizations, had they been > able or > > enabled by their treaters and by society at large to more openly share > their > > severe persecution history. > > > > > > The importance of > > re-living these traumatic events and sharing them with sympathetic > others is a > > cornerstone of modern therapeutic processes. > > A therapeutic intervention such as video testimony or simply writing a > > blog of the experience is a step forward > > that helps build a narrative for the traumatic experience and gives it a > > coherent expression that helps in > > alleviating its symptoms and changing its course. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course those of us > > who survived the camps had no such help, and worse still emigrated to > countries > > like Austria and Germany that were largely destroyed and suffering > greatly from > > the war. Those unlucky enough not to > > escape the camps were forced into additional forced labor for three more > years > > before they could reasonably escape. > > Their traumatic experiences and traumatic events, from the helplessness > of a mother who could > > not feed her children; to the helplessness of children who saw their > grandparents > > starve to death before their eyes, were everywhere; and fear > > was a constant of their lives for years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Research on PTSD has > > shown that it is not necessary to have faced fear of death to develop > the many > > parts of the PTSD syndrome: anxiety, depression, flashbacks, intense > distress, > > suicidal thoughts, feelings of distrust and paranoia, detachment and > emotional numbness, > > and yes, guilt, shame, and self-blame. > > > > > > (see > http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm > > > > > > And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptsd) > > > > > > > > > > > > The camps and slave > > labor were especially traumatic, as was the whole experience of > supporting the > > Russian army in those areas of the Batschka along the prolonged fighting > in the > > Fall of 1944; but the escapees in the treks out of the region suffered > their > > own fears and trauma. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is unfortunate that > > DVHH offers no guidance to the successor generations about these > symptoms of > > the events, because the effects linger and reverberate in successive > > generations. > > > > > > It is even more > > unfortunate when those with the courage to reveal their symptoms are > attacked > > and ridiculed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Laub, D. "Kann die Psychoanalyse dazu beitragen, > > den Volkermord historisch besser zu verstehen?" ("Can Psychoanalysts > Enhance Historical > > Understanding of Genocide"), Psyche-Z. Psychoanal 57, 2003. > > > > > > Neugebauer, R et al > > (2009).Post‐traumatic stress reactions among Rwandan children and > adolescents > > in the early aftermath of genocide. International Journal of > Epidemiology. • > > Electronic publication—ahead of print. Newbury, C & Baldwin, H (2000, > > July). Aftermath: Women's organizations in post‐conflict Rwanda. > Retrieved July > > 6, 2009, from U.S. Agency for International Development Web site: > http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNACJ324.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.aaanet.org/sections/spa/?page_id=326 > > > > > > > > > > > > Genocide and Mass > > Violence: Memory, Symptom, and Intervention Center for the Study of > Genocide > > and Human Rights > > > > > > Rutgers University > > > > > > September 17-18, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > Organizers: Alex > > Hinton (Rutgers University) and Devon Hinton (Massachusetts General > Hospital) > > > > > > > > > > > > This interdisciplinary > > conference included over 25 participants, including several international > > speakers, from psychological anthropology, medical anthropology, social > > medicine, psychiatry, public health, and psychology. It examined the > legacies > > of genocide and mass violence on individuals and the social worlds in > which > > they live, with particular attention to the local processes of recovery > from > > that legacy. The workshop > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex Hinton > > > > > > Transitional Justice: > > Global Mechanisms and Local Realities after Genocide and Mass Violence > > (Rutgers, 2010) > > > > > > > > Best, > > Joe. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ok Dana, I will check all these pages tomorrow morning and get back to you. Best wishes, Diana -----Original Message----- From: schdan2@sasktel.net Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 8:45 PM To: schdan2@sasktel.net ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com ; Diana Subject: Re: [DVHH] Grabatz family book Hi Diana First of all I thank you for such a quick response. I will mention my great grandfather Johann Rehm, he was the youngest in the family of four boys, he was born on January 31, 1876. As the story goes his mother died in childbirth with him. He later moved to Canada in April of 1903. Another brother Hanns(likely just a variation of Johann) was born in May of 1873. He made a trip to the US in March of 1903, not sure what happened but filed for citizenship but said his move to the US was in October of 1909. What I am interested in is the names of his other two brothers, if they immigrated to Canada as well, and of course his parents names, birthdays, date of death and anything else that can be learned. Again I thank you Diana for the quick response. Dana On Tue, 6 May 2014 20:29:14 +0100, Diana <diana@villaflorida.co.uk> wrote: Hi Dana, > > There are 19 pages of REHM names in the Grabatz book, so if you could give > me as much info as you could on your own ancestors (names, dates), I will > scan the relevant pages for you. > Diana > > -----Original Message----- From: schdan2@sasktel.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 7:50 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DVHH] Grabatz family book > > > > Greetings to all > > I joined this site approximately 4 years ago and wasn't ever someone who > posted a lot. I somehow got deleted from the list > and so I listed again, got added and here I am. > I was on a freepages genealoy site last week that lists people in the > Hungarian infantry and where there home village was. > Three men are listed with the last name of Rehm that came from Grabatz. > Rehm is my mothers maiden name. I believe that one of these > three men could be my great grandfathers father. I have been wanting to go > back more generations from my ggf and so I ask, if anyone > out there have a Grabatz family book, if they could look into these names > and email me back, or the list, of each of these family members and > children, > wife, children and any other information that may be listed. > Thanking you all in advance. > Dana Schneider > Saskatoon, SK. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Hi Dana, There are 19 pages of REHM names in the Grabatz book, so if you could give me as much info as you could on your own ancestors (names, dates), I will scan the relevant pages for you. Diana -----Original Message----- From: schdan2@sasktel.net Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 7:50 PM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] Grabatz family book Greetings to all I joined this site approximately 4 years ago and wasn't ever someone who posted a lot. I somehow got deleted from the list and so I listed again, got added and here I am. I was on a freepages genealoy site last week that lists people in the Hungarian infantry and where there home village was. Three men are listed with the last name of Rehm that came from Grabatz. Rehm is my mothers maiden name. I believe that one of these three men could be my great grandfathers father. I have been wanting to go back more generations from my ggf and so I ask, if anyone out there have a Grabatz family book, if they could look into these names and email me back, or the list, of each of these family members and children, wife, children and any other information that may be listed. Thanking you all in advance. Dana Schneider Saskatoon, SK. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message