Hello All, My computer puts spam in the ‘Junk Mail’ box. I normally don’t get much spam . Some of the List mail has gone in there as well, so I just check. If I don’t recognise the sender, I don’t open it. I think if there are German or DS dialect words in the mail, it sometimes assumes it is spam. Anne

Hi Eve, Yes it is difficult to be politically correct. There is always someone that you may offend. But, even with this in mind, I think it is important for us to discuss these matters... For the first hand survivors to find a place to do this comfortably... For the next generations to understand their heritage and what what their families went through. This story should definitely not be swept under the carpet. It needs to be discussed and take it's rightful place in the history books. So we can freely embrace our wonderful culture as we live our lives in our new countries. Rita From: evebrown@gmail.com Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 21:39:43 -0400 Subject: DS descendants - going forward! To: schiwanore@msn.com CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Hi Rita, You know as I do too, that growing up with family with issues of anger and long believed prejudices that as a child we can't begin to understand how all these things came about. The thoughts of our ancestors and how they lived their lives and depending on which side of the coin they fell, where their own personal sympathies laid. I'm getting confused just writing this and trying to stay politically correct. The thing is.....we as posters don't necessarily agree with or even comprehend the how or why of any of it. I know there are many out here on the list who have lived it first hand, I have the second hand variety - seen the anger, frustration the loss - and not a clue as to why!!!! Until I found out about the DS and their journey (long before anyone thought to coin the name Donauschwaben) was I able to start to make sense of what was to many considered a horrible childhood for me (and my parents escaped and were not in one of Tito's camps). Yes, indeed it is a difficult thing to explain, but a real treasure when you do catch someone's ear and are able to discuss it with the passion that I see shared here on the list. Eve On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 9:18 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch <schiwanore@msn.com> wrote: Hi Eve, My Mother made a personal decision not to go to Germany after the war. She and my Oma lived in the Graz area in Austria after escaping in 1948 and worked on local farms. My Oma was approached by some agency that was helping the refugees find places to reestablish themselves. The options were Germany, USA, or Australia. Even though the majority of my family went to Germany, Mom refused. Said there was no way she was going there (Stubborness runs in my family... Dickschädl for those that know the lingo). She felt Germany was the cause of all of their hardships and heartaches... and that Germany's actions were responsible for the murder of her father.... her brother's death (at that time he was MIA).... and the loss of everything that she ever knew. She would have been about 24 years old at the time of that decision. My Oma finally gave in to her and they came to the USA. Oma would go to Germany every few years or so to visit with her brothers, sisters, and their families. Some came to visit us occasionally. Oma really missed her immediate family. All in all, Mom still feels that is was the right thing to do. This also makes me wonder what nationlity she really considered herself to be in 1944.... especially since she would not involve herself with the Kulturbund (German Cultural Club) that established itself in Jugoslavia after WWII and, some feel, responsible for promoting Hitler's philosophies. She says she is German or Austrian (depending on who she is talking to). But, only because she doesn't want to have to explain about herself and her background. She was and still is not ashamed. But, the lack of knowledge Americans have about Donauschwaben and the end of WWII, make it a difficult explanation. Rita From Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > From: evebrown@gmail.com > Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 18:35:42 -0400 > To: danielashowley@aol.com > CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Daniela, > > My mom & dad told the same story. Mom didn't feel wanted in Austria - or > like she belonged and were refused entrance into Germany in 1946 as it was > overcrowded and they already had some cousins that were admitted - early on > in 45. > > Eve > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

Hi Eve, My Mother made a personal decision not to go to Germany after the war. She and my Oma lived in the Graz area in Austria after escaping in 1948 and worked on local farms. My Oma was approached by some agency that was helping the refugees find places to reestablish themselves. The options were Germany, USA, or Australia. Even though the majority of my family went to Germany, Mom refused. Said there was no way she was going there (Stubborness runs in my family... Dickschädl for those that know the lingo). She felt Germany was the cause of all of their hardships and heartaches... and that Germany's actions were responsible for the murder of her father.... her brother's death (at that time he was MIA).... and the loss of everything that she ever knew. She would have been about 24 years old at the time of that decision. My Oma finally gave in to her and they came to the USA. Oma would go to Germany every few years or so to visit with her brothers, sisters, and their families. Some came to visit us occasionally. Oma really missed her immediate family. All in all, Mom still feels that is was the right thing to do. This also makes me wonder what nationlity she really considered herself to be in 1944.... especially since she would not involve herself with the Kulturbund (German Cultural Club) that established itself in Jugoslavia after WWII and, some feel, responsible for promoting Hitler's philosophies. She says she is German or Austrian (depending on who she is talking to). But, only because she doesn't want to have to explain about herself and her background. She was and still is not ashamed. But, the lack of knowledge Americans have about Donauschwaben and the end of WWII, make it a difficult explanation. Rita From Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > From: evebrown@gmail.com > Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 18:35:42 -0400 > To: danielashowley@aol.com > CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Daniela, > > My mom & dad told the same story. Mom didn't feel wanted in Austria - or > like she belonged and were refused entrance into Germany in 1946 as it was > overcrowded and they already had some cousins that were admitted - early on > in 45. > > Eve > > >

Happy Mother's Day to you too Rose and all of the mom's out there in Cyberville! Eve On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 7:05 PM, Rose Vetter <rosevetter@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Eve and all, > > During the past two or three weeks I have also found DVHH list messages > from certain persons in my Spam folder. As well, my messages are being > selected as Spam in some other peoples folders. > > I don't know if this is a problem unique to Gmail users only, but it might > be worthwhile for all of you to monitor your Spam folders--you may find > quite a few DVHH mail there. > > Happy Mother's Day to all you moms out there! > > Rose > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

Hans, You've hit on something I hadn't thought of - lack of schooling. I said my mom was not ashamed, but now when I think about it and your post - when it came to her education I do think she was ashamed, my father too. It was covered up with anger in regard to anything to do with education - that was a tough one for me growing up. My school work always came last after chores were done and sometimes my grades suffered because of it - but failing a subject was not allowed either. I have noticed that other families from mom's and dad's towns had just the opposite reaction where education came to the front. Funny how the same thing can effect others in different ways. I have to say that my parents education was not cut back because of the war though (IMHO), but because of lifestyle and being in a "newer" colony. Their village never had the pretty Trachten that I see connected with many other villages - they wore their Sunday best, but just not as fancy. Just my 2¢ worth (I'm in the US we still have our pennies - LOL) Eve On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Hans Kopp <hanskopp.anni@yahoo.com> wrote: > Dear Lister > There is > definitely some truth to it; "being ashamed" to in particular the > people who languished In the starvation camps. > Basically for > two reasons. I was 9 years old when we were expelled from our home April 15 > 1945. My grandmother would load our wheelbarrow with essential and did walk > with the load our way from Batschsentiwan to Filipowa. In Filipowa we had > to load on a train after being there for two weeks to be shipped to > Gakowa. We > had to march between two rows of partisans to whom we had to show what we > have > and they took everything they wanted from the people. > Having only the > clothes on our back we lived for two years in Gakowa. Naturally the > children outgrew their clothing and had to resort to making clothes out of > whatever they still had and my grandmother made clothes out of "Jute > Sack" for us. My aunt who was a seamstress had needles and I had found > scissors in Filipowa as thread they used thread they took from some > clothes and > Jute. Now we were running around in these clothes till we reached Austria. > We can imagine how we looked, but we were not the only ones, others were > forced to do the same. > The second > reason was our dialect and the fact that most of our people did only have 6 > years of schooling and had a difficult time to communicate in a dialect > they were not familiar. > I myself like > many of us lost 3 years of schooling and now practically had to start > over. Some > were not even able to do this especially those children who lost some 5 > years > of schooling. > Our people once > very proud people with beautiful Trachten now were walking around in rags > and > were often looked at from the side. > The mother if > one of my friends was a wonderful women and I was eating many times in > their house and she would say; it does not matter what clothes I was > wearing as > long as they were neatly mended and clean. There is nothing to be ashamed > of > it. > Hans > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

This too fell into my spam folder so a very late reply. I loved your story Violette and hope you share more. My cousins still living in Croatia and Serbia are more diverse than my line, I just have the Bohemian, German and Hungarian. I know they have quite a bit more than that. Eve On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Violette Weisfeld <violetteweisfeld@aol.com>wrote: > I believe I am your most diverse member. Antoni, Dorner, Vrgovic and now > Weisfeld. My mom was DS and my dad a 2nd generation Serb. I never knew what > DS was until the Serbian Genealogical society told me to look there for my > family. I knew my dad did not want my sister and I to speak any other > language because he didn't want us to have accents. I never heard one war > time story other than how hard it was to find food. My mom never said a > word, and we never asked. Family always came first and we were a tight > group. Having recently found other living family has been such an > adventure. My parents tried with no luck. Now I am finishing what they > started and new found relatives are joining me! Unbelievable! > > Violette Vrgovich Weisfeld > > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

This post ended up in my spam folder - wondering if anyone has an answer for this???? I'm interested too, although my guess is that the dialect came with them for the most part and then assimilated to whichever area and the current inhabitants - but that is a 100% guess! Eve On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 10:40 AM, SusanM <soozn_6@yahoo.com> wrote: > Is Shwovish German very different than low German? My mother said they > spoke low German, and I think it's the dialect most closely related to > English. Whatever that says. And so they spoke Shwovish, did that develop > in Eastern Europe, or did some people come there already speaking it? Now > that they have returned to Germany, are they speaking differently there > than the main population? > > Susan M > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

Daniela, My mom & dad told the same story. Mom didn't feel wanted in Austria - or like she belonged and were refused entrance into Germany in 1946 as it was overcrowded and they already had some cousins that were admitted - early on in 45. Eve On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Daniela <danielashowley@aol.com> wrote: > > Germany, after the 2nd world war, I am talking now West Germany not East > Germany. West Germany was the biggest confusion and chaos after the war > because they bombed the crap out of West Germany. The native Germans that > lived there were homeless. And on top of that food supply and business was > not even existing. They had to start from scratch over there. And then came > one train after another loaded with immigrants, ethnic Germans, that were > forcibly kicked out of every part of Eastern Europe, Central Europe > including Russia. And the whole world was allowing the ethnic Germans to be > kicked out. In this existing chaotic after war, and setting up camps for > the immigrants, there was shortage of everything. Water supply, food > supply, electricity, heating supply. There were people living in receiving > camps for many years. It was a hardship season for them, but they were > happy to be alive. With all those that had been deported and sent back to > Germany it was overcrowded. The hardshi! > p of the war, the bombing and destruction, the living in the camps. Why > did they want to leave Germany? They had gotten beaten up. They lost all > their properties. Europe was on shaky ground. The ethnic Germans did not > want to live in unsafe conditions anymore. Eventually, many places like > Canada and the USA were offering them a better living standard and a more > secure living in those countries. Every country had representatives there > helping them to resettle in new lands. This is why my parents left Germany, > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > > < Why is it that all these people who you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany? > > Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, > had lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no > less than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel > 100% > "German" anymore? > > > Karen. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

Hello everyone - I wanted to reply to this mostly because I've had a few comments from some that they aren't getting all of their mail that they've seen in the archives. I just went to delete my spam folder and found 10 DVHH mail in there from the past week - this has never happened to me with my gmail acct. - just a heads up to check these spam folders - I think with new security measures being added and stuff this is starting to happen. I don't understand how ANY mail of mine with DVHH in the subject line could end up in there. Also, to Lotte, I get such a kick out of seeing someone else from Haid Lager. I need to have a private talk with you sometime and get your info - you may have been in school with my older sisters. Leni was born in Austria and Theresa in Kupinovo, Yugoslavia - me - USA. Sadly I may have already gone over this with you and just can't recall - my brain is over booked. Eve On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Lotte Devlin <lielo816@aol.com> wrote: > > Karen, > I just need to respond to one part of your eloquent discussion: > > "Why is it that all these people who you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany?" > > It was impossible for my parents to go to Germany from the Austrian DP > camp, except by way of France, and then only "black". My father refused to > do that. > > Either the German government or the allied occupation forces determined > that the refugees who were housed in Austrian DP camps, most of whom came > from the southern areas of Yugoslavia, Romania and Hungary, would be > absorbed into the Austrian population, rather than be allowed to emigrate > to Germany, because of the millions of eastern European Germans from > Poland, Silesia, Pomerania and Sudeten Germans who had to be integrated > into what was to become West Germany. > > You have to remember that most of Germany and Austria were destroyed. We > were still living in wooden barracks with dirt floors in 1952 when we > immigrated, with no prospect of improvement any time soon. The last > barracks in Haid were torn down in the early 60s. So rather than not > feeling at home in Germany, the "German" Germans didn't want us, and there > was little for them to offer at that time. We had family in the US, so > that's why my parents opted for the American dream. I can't even imagine > what it must have been like for them to leave, believing they would never > see their families again. > > Anyway, not to be too melodramatic, but people couldn't always do what > they wanted, because things were really bad. > > Many who emigrated earlier in the 20s did so because they came to work in > the states for a few years to send money home, and so it was a logical > place to go. For those of us who came later, this first wave pretty well > served as sponsors for the WWII DPs. > > Lotte > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > To: Jody McKim Pharr <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net>; 'Nick Tullius' < > ntullius@rogers.com>; donauschwaben-villages < > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 4:00 pm > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Hi Jody! > > Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last > sentence. > I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps > schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick > with the black and white definitions. > Karen. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" > <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Karen, > > Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is > important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. > > We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: > " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" > > And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for everyone. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > islandkaren > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM > To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Nick! > > I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking > for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your > first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as > many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have > now > met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were > born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, > Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, > Englesbrun, > and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, Banaters, > Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not > "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in > what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and > Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. > > So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that > please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you > and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to > understand this fascinating history. > It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by > the > agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence > fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in > all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on > certain > definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a > great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become > universal. > It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said > before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, > and > was surprised by what I found. > I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other > spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton > University to have some of my material translated. And for all the > "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our > own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language > Department > at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an > established history. > So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) > > By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" any > definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change the > reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to > happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. > > What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all this, > is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand > experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. > I > have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my > experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has been > established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real > insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change > religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. > You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? > > My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is > not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with > reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely > important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to > remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all > Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving > back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the > areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, > multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about > being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer > than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the > beginning > and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. > > I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That > does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching > a > vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch > family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed > marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common law > marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village > groups > were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, and > the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing new > there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. > > Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what > I > have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS > members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so > threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they left > Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to > some > extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? > > While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading > your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who > you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany? > > Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, > had > lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no less > than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% > "German" anymore? > > Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your > definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as > hell > and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more > real and infinitely richer than the definitions. > > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Karen! > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage > you > or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own > private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) > leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You > can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the > Latins used to say. > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 > years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) > and > in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of > Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a > fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, > research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests > on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was > not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian > and > an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or > proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a > few > Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems > clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something > other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living > in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one > of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > Cheers, > > Nick Tullius > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Lotte Devlin <lielo816@aol.com> wrote: > > Karen, > I just need to respond to one part of your eloquent discussion: > > "Why is it that all these people who you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany?" > > It was impossible for my parents to go to Germany from the Austrian DP > camp, except by way of France, and then only "black". My father refused to > do that. > > Either the German government or the allied occupation forces determined > that the refugees who were housed in Austrian DP camps, most of whom came > from the southern areas of Yugoslavia, Romania and Hungary, would be > absorbed into the Austrian population, rather than be allowed to emigrate > to Germany, because of the millions of eastern European Germans from > Poland, Silesia, Pomerania and Sudeten Germans who had to be integrated > into what was to become West Germany. > > You have to remember that most of Germany and Austria were destroyed. We > were still living in wooden barracks with dirt floors in 1952 when we > immigrated, with no prospect of improvement any time soon. The last > barracks in Haid were torn down in the early 60s. So rather than not > feeling at home in Germany, the "German" Germans didn't want us, and there > was little for them to offer at that time. We had family in the US, so > that's why my parents opted for the American dream. I can't even imagine > what it must have been like for them to leave, believing they would never > see their families again. > > Anyway, not to be too melodramatic, but people couldn't always do what > they wanted, because things were really bad. > > Many who emigrated earlier in the 20s did so because they came to work in > the states for a few years to send money home, and so it was a logical > place to go. For those of us who came later, this first wave pretty well > served as sponsors for the WWII DPs. > > Lotte > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > To: Jody McKim Pharr <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net>; 'Nick Tullius' < > ntullius@rogers.com>; donauschwaben-villages < > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 4:00 pm > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Hi Jody! > > Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last > sentence. > I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps > schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick > with the black and white definitions. > Karen. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" > <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Karen, > > Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is > important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. > > We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: > " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" > > And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for everyone. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > islandkaren > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM > To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Nick! > > I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking > for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your > first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as > many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have > now > met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were > born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, > Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, > Englesbrun, > and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, Banaters, > Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not > "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in > what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and > Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. > > So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that > please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you > and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to > understand this fascinating history. > It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by > the > agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence > fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in > all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on > certain > definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a > great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become > universal. > It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said > before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, > and > was surprised by what I found. > I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other > spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton > University to have some of my material translated. And for all the > "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our > own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language > Department > at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an > established history. > So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) > > By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" any > definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change the > reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to > happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. > > What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all this, > is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand > experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. > I > have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my > experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has been > established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real > insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change > religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. > You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? > > My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is > not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with > reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely > important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to > remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all > Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving > back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the > areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, > multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about > being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer > than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the > beginning > and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. > > I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That > does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching > a > vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch > family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed > marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common law > marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village > groups > were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, and > the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing new > there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. > > Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what > I > have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS > members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so > threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they left > Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to > some > extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? > > While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading > your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who > you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany? > > Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, > had > lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no less > than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% > "German" anymore? > > Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your > definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as > hell > and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more > real and infinitely richer than the definitions. > > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Karen! > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage > you > or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own > private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) > leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You > can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the > Latins used to say. > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 > years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) > and > in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of > Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a > fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, > research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests > on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was > not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian > and > an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or > proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a > few > Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems > clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something > other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living > in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one > of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > Cheers, > > Nick Tullius > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

Yes, every once in awhile I find a DVHH message in the spam folder as well.  Guess I never thought to say anything about it. Judy ________________________________ From: Rose Vetter <rosevetter@gmail.com> To: DVHH-L <Donauschwaben-Villages-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 7:05 PM Subject: [DVHH] DVHH Mail Ending up in Spam Hi Eve and all, During the past two or three weeks I have also found DVHH list messages from certain persons in my Spam folder.  As well, my messages are being selected as Spam in some other peoples folders. I don't know if this is a problem unique to Gmail users only, but it might be worthwhile for all of you to monitor your Spam folders--you may find quite a few DVHH mail there. Happy Mother's Day to all you moms out there! Rose ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Eve and all, During the past two or three weeks I have also found DVHH list messages from certain persons in my Spam folder. As well, my messages are being selected as Spam in some other peoples folders. I don't know if this is a problem unique to Gmail users only, but it might be worthwhile for all of you to monitor your Spam folders--you may find quite a few DVHH mail there. Happy Mother's Day to all you moms out there! Rose

Thanks Eve, You are precisely correct. The letter was received by regular mail. My note was intended to see if anyone else on the list had received a similar letter and to caution others to be skeptical of its provenance. Hans H On May 10, 2014, at 9:04 PM, Eve wrote: > Just a note to all that have responded. Hans said this was "regular" mail, I still think it's a scam and he should destroy it. > > Eve > > > On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Beth Tolfree <cbtol43@bak.rr.com> wrote: > The Saturday/Sunday edition of the Wall Street Journal today has a big > article on page C1 > that includes several paragraphs about scam emails and how it costs the > scammer > nothing to send out hundreds and hundreds of scam emails, and the money he > stands to make > if just a small number of people fall for his pitch. > > So it's wise to be very very wary of this sort of email. > > Beth > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John J. > Kornfeind > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 4:42 PM > To: John Haumann; DVHH Donauschwaben > Subject: Re: [DVHH] possible inheritance scam > > Dear Hans, > > The chance of it being a real inheritance email 0 % !!! > > The likelihood that you will be taken taken by a SCAM artist 100 % !!! > > Don't do anything they ask! Delete it and move on. It is too good to be > true! > > John in Arizona > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "John Haumann" <haumann@earthlink.net> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 12:20 PM > To: "DVHH Donauschwaben" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [DVHH] possible inheritance scam > > > > > Hello fellow listers. > > > > I'm not sure what to make of this. Last week I received by regular > > mail, a letter suggesting that I might be the sole surviving heir of > > an individual who died without a will and left a sizable account in the > UK. > > The letter (which bore no official letterhead) claims that the > > originator is a "chartered accountant" and "independent auditor" in > > the UK, and suggests that the recipient of the letter has been > > identified through some preliminary research as a potential heir. > > Based on the nature and some unusual wording in the letter, I am highly > skeptical of its validity. > > > > Since the surname of the deceased is that of a Schwob, I was wondering > > if others on the DVHH list might have received a similar letter. > > > > Hans > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > -- > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

To All I have a old American Death Certificate for my 3rd great grandfather, but between sloppy writing and me unfamiliar with German towns in Germany at the time of 1829 I cannot decipher what it says. If you think you can help me, contact me privately and I’ll email the certificate and what I’m trying to figure out. Rhonda Friedl Staudt

I have received an email purportedly from Linda Bautz McKenna with an attachment and although she mentions dvhh in her message, I am very wary of opening any attachments that I am not expecting. Is this a scam or did you really write to me, Linda? Diana (Lambing)

Hello list members, First of all, thanks to so many of you for your understanding and support as we muddle through with this unsubscribing thing. Also, thanks to Linda Jaspersen, who sent me this announcement/posting by rootsweb. 1 Mail Lists: 2014-05-08 Due to recent changes made by many e-mail providers with DMARC security settings many Mailing List members are finding that they are being unsubscribed. Roots Web engineers are working with the e-mail providers to find a solution to this issue. We appreciate your patience. Est. downtime: Indefinite(s) In addition I've gone in and upped the amount of bounces before someone is unsubbed and will change it back once this is fixed. Not sure if that will help or not, but thought it might slow it down a bit. -- DVHH mail list co-administrator Eve Brown

Thanks Joe, We have new list members and also many members that may not be as well versed in English (or my American slang - LOL) - especially those who have not spoken with me personally before - it can be very easy to get wires crossed. Anyway, thank you for your support. Eve On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 6:48 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > > Thanks Eve, > > I can't imagine why anyone would be offended by what you said. > > Thank you for your upright support of considerate netiquette, and more > than that, your compassion. > > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ------------------------------ > From: Eve <evebrown@gmail.com> > Sent: ‎5/‎9/‎2014 7:13 PM > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DVHH] List issues > > Hello everyone, > > Once again (as 15 of you already know) we have been hit with several > unsubs. Thanks to those that posted me a quick note I went in and resubbed > as soon as I saw my messages. I have to apologize for this continued pain > to us all. I have sent another notice to rootsweb as I don't see how their > thoughts and solutions have anything to do with what is happening. I also > have changed passwords once again. > > Now, I would also like to make an apology to the list to anyone who felt > that they were being specifically targeted by this post of mine: > > " I do want everyone to keep in mind of being respectful and > considerate of each other - remember there are some here who have lived > their life in the "old country" some with good memories, some not so good, > in fact horrific. > Our history, no matter how many generations out from living the experience > ourselves we are, is a very unusual one and one not recorded in history > books or known about by many. Let's share, help others to learn by > answering their questions and most of all be kind, courteous and respectful > on this list. By all means disagree if that is how you feel, but do so in > a respectful manner and remember if you are stating something as a fact - > you need to share your source. " > > This was just meant for everyone on the mail list to keep in mind and I > include myself in those on the mail list. The really bad thing about > text/email type messages is they do not have a tone, emotion or feeling to > them and if you don't know the person, that is saying them personally it is > so easy to misunderstand - and I'm as guilty of that as anyone. > > Sincerely, > Eve > > > -- > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

Just a note to all that have responded. Hans said this was "regular" mail, I still think it's a scam and he should destroy it. Eve On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Beth Tolfree <cbtol43@bak.rr.com> wrote: > The Saturday/Sunday edition of the Wall Street Journal today has a big > article on page C1 > that includes several paragraphs about scam emails and how it costs the > scammer > nothing to send out hundreds and hundreds of scam emails, and the money he > stands to make > if just a small number of people fall for his pitch. > > So it's wise to be very very wary of this sort of email. > > Beth > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John J. > Kornfeind > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 4:42 PM > To: John Haumann; DVHH Donauschwaben > Subject: Re: [DVHH] possible inheritance scam > > Dear Hans, > > The chance of it being a real inheritance email 0 % !!! > > The likelihood that you will be taken taken by a SCAM artist 100 % !!! > > Don't do anything they ask! Delete it and move on. It is too good to be > true! > > John in Arizona > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "John Haumann" <haumann@earthlink.net> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 12:20 PM > To: "DVHH Donauschwaben" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [DVHH] possible inheritance scam > > > > > Hello fellow listers. > > > > I'm not sure what to make of this. Last week I received by regular > > mail, a letter suggesting that I might be the sole surviving heir of > > an individual who died without a will and left a sizable account in the > UK. > > The letter (which bore no official letterhead) claims that the > > originator is a "chartered accountant" and "independent auditor" in > > the UK, and suggests that the recipient of the letter has been > > identified through some preliminary research as a potential heir. > > Based on the nature and some unusual wording in the letter, I am highly > skeptical of its validity. > > > > Since the surname of the deceased is that of a Schwob, I was wondering > > if others on the DVHH list might have received a similar letter. > > > > Hans > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

The Saturday/Sunday edition of the Wall Street Journal today has a big article on page C1 that includes several paragraphs about scam emails and how it costs the scammer nothing to send out hundreds and hundreds of scam emails, and the money he stands to make if just a small number of people fall for his pitch. So it's wise to be very very wary of this sort of email. Beth -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John J. Kornfeind Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 4:42 PM To: John Haumann; DVHH Donauschwaben Subject: Re: [DVHH] possible inheritance scam Dear Hans, The chance of it being a real inheritance email 0 % !!! The likelihood that you will be taken taken by a SCAM artist 100 % !!! Don't do anything they ask! Delete it and move on. It is too good to be true! John in Arizona -------------------------------------------------- From: "John Haumann" <haumann@earthlink.net> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 12:20 PM To: "DVHH Donauschwaben" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: [DVHH] possible inheritance scam > > Hello fellow listers. > > I'm not sure what to make of this. Last week I received by regular > mail, a letter suggesting that I might be the sole surviving heir of > an individual who died without a will and left a sizable account in the UK. > The letter (which bore no official letterhead) claims that the > originator is a "chartered accountant" and "independent auditor" in > the UK, and suggests that the recipient of the letter has been > identified through some preliminary research as a potential heir. > Based on the nature and some unusual wording in the letter, I am highly skeptical of its validity. > > Since the surname of the deceased is that of a Schwob, I was wondering > if others on the DVHH list might have received a similar letter. > > Hans > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John, If it sounds too good to be true, it isn't true! There are many bad people out there in cyber space ... always be vigilant. Tony > From: haumann@earthlink.net > Date: Sat, 10 May 2014 14:20:30 -0500 > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DVHH] possible inheritance scam > > > Hello fellow listers. > > I'm not sure what to make of this. Last week I received by regular mail, a letter suggesting that I might be the sole surviving heir of an individual who died without a will and left a sizable account in the UK. The letter (which bore no official letterhead) claims that the originator is a "chartered accountant" and "independent auditor" in the UK, and suggests that the recipient of the letter has been identified through some preliminary research as a potential heir. Based on the nature and some unusual wording in the letter, I am highly skeptical of its validity. > > Since the surname of the deceased is that of a Schwob, I was wondering if others on the DVHH list might have received a similar letter. > > Hans > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message