Dear Karen, I'm not an expert on the subject, especially when it comes to the history of the Jewish people. And I'm not a historian. My understanding is that Hungary, and perhaps much of the Central European region, was quite different to Western Europe concerning the situation of Jewish people. They were more protected during the Middle Ages (that's why many Jewish people fled to this region at the time) and there wasn't the same kind of persecution you had in Western Europe. Jewish people largely contributed to the Hungarian Uprising in 1848 and, partly due to this, they had a fairly good position in Hungary, up until 1919 and the brief communist rule, which set antisemitism ablaze. They had a very strong presence in society and in the economy. The largest synagogue in Europe was built in Budapest in 1859 (even today, it is the second largest in the world). It is not by chance that Hitler cynically called Budapest 'Judapest'. Much of the Jewish population in Hungary was very assimilated -- although, as we know now, their situation was much more fragile than they thought. What happenned to Jews in Hungary in the 20th century is not only the responsibility of the Nazis. They were always seen with suspicion by the Christian population, throughout the centuries, as you rightly point it out. This suspicion, contributed to their horrible fate. However, when you talk to Hungarian Jewish people, they often point out that the Holocaust and the fierce antisemitism of the majority population was especially traumatic to them, exactly because they perceived themselves as being very much part of Hungarian society. To my knowledge, there weren't ghettos in Hungary the way they existed in the West of Europe and in the 19th century you didn't have pogroms the way you had in Russia. But, again, my knowledge on the subject is very limited and I'm actually very open to learning more on this. I'm sorry if my message came across as if I was denying the suffering of the Jewish people. That was not my intention at all. As for the Mayflower, I was just trying to make the point that, as much as today we (rightly) see Central Europe as quite backwards in many ways, at the time it was even slightly ahead of the rest of the world. (Btw, the religious tolerance in Torda in 1568 was not extended to the Jewish religion, only to four Christian denominations.) Tamás -----Original Message----- From: karen mcbride <[email protected]> Sent: mardi 3 avril 2018 20:37 To: Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) <[email protected]> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? Dear Tamas, With all due respect, I am certain you believe there were no ghettos in any sense of the word in Hungary until the Nazis arrived in the 1930s.  In fact, history of Eastern Europe and Hungary is rift with oppression, displacement and murder of Jews.  Since the year 4-7 AD, every country and government in the world considered Jews as "separate" either by their own design, or by force, or by both.  No government, including the United States, ever actually believed Jews were anything but "different" and in most cases heretical. Some governments tolerated their Jewish populations for varying reasons throughout history, but for the most part Jews constantly struggled with being too rich, too poor, too involved, too political, not political enough, etc. and then were set upon in one way or another by the existing powers that be, and were "permitted" to live where they were or then removed in one way or another to somewhere else.  Their existence in a place was always decided by others and never secure in any sense of the word. Hungary was no exception to this historically.  The history of the Jewish populations in Buda is a prime example as it is a story of periods of "tolerance" for Jews, and periods of complete intolerance and thus expulsion for Jews, over many centuries.  Which ever period you reference, the fact is the Jewish populations had to "depend" on tolerance of one kind or another in order to be "allowed" to stay. In this discussion your reference to the Mayflower is badly placed...those on the Mayflower were "separatists" who emigrated to America in order to isolate themselves and control completely everyone within their sect and environment and establish what could be called a caliphate or dare I say it, a ghetto, in the New World.  They wanted nothing to do with people of other religions and their edicts were very similar to ISIS in actuality, and their desire for isolation, control, and exclusion was vicious. Our collective desire, in the face of the unspeakable brutality of the Nazis, to claim "tolerance" and equanimity toward Jews, is heartwarming, but historically does not hold-up in the face of facts.  And please do not confuse this discussion with any reference to anyone's personal experience or personal family history.  My discussion is completely academic with no personal reference to anyone's Town or Village or Family. Karen.   On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 1:15 PM, FREY Tamas <[email protected]> wrote: Hello Karen, I was actually replying to Hans Kopp, I only just read your original message. To my knowledge, in Hungary, there were no ghettos (in any sense of the word) for Jews or for any other ethnicities, until the Nazi occupation. Jews were actually much more assimilated in Hungary than possibly anywhere else in the world. Also, as much I'm aware, there were no government or any other types of progroms in Hungary against any religious minorities. Except, perhaps, for a few isolated local incidents between 1881-1884, where the government intervened. On the contrary, Jewish victims of pogroms in Russia fled to Hungary... There was the counter-reformation in the 1700's and the persecution of protestants by the Hapsburgs, but I don't think that that's what you meant. A not very well known fact: it was in Torda, part of Transylvania at the time (today Romania), in 1568, where Hungarian nobles signed a decree guaranteeing a form of religious tolerance that was unprecedented on a global scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Torda. It was a half a century before the Mayflower appeared on the American coasts... It is not by chance that you see villages all across the Carpathian basin with several church steeples, sometimes synagogues as well. People of all religions and ethnicities lived quite peacefully together here, for centuries. If there was turmoil, it was mostly invasions from external powers. Tamás Frey -----Original Message----- From: karen mcbride <[email protected]> Sent: mardi 3 avril 2018 18:08 To: Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) <[email protected]> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? Hello Tamas, Your information is correct in regard to oppression and violence in the ghettos, whether Jewish areas or others, in the time frame you mention.  The word "ghetto" does not always connote violence.  It means a "segregated or separate area" of ethnic or religious people within a Town or City.  That was the way I was using the word with no intention of indicating oppression or violence. Example: Many decades before WWI and WWII, Budapest had many Jews who lived and worked freely in the City.  They however had their own section or area within the City where they lived and worshiped exclusively...a ghetto.  The Nazis used the word pejoratively and violently displaced people into exclusive areas to perpetrate their evil forever more creating an ugly connotation for the word. Karen.      On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 4:12 AM, FREY Tamas <[email protected]> wrote: Actually, Jewish ghettos were only created after the German occupation of Hungary on 19 March, 1944. In the 1940's, antisemitism was a part of the Hungarian government's policy - but to a large extent it served to keep Hungary's ally, the Germans abay and to prevent a German occupation. Germany, however, did occupy Hungary in the end and that is when the ghettos were created (with the help of the Hungarian police forces). -----Original Message----- From: Hans Kopp via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> Sent: lundi 2 avril 2018 19:38 To: karen mcbride <[email protected]>; Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) <[email protected]> Cc: Hans Kopp <[email protected]> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? Let us understand history correctly. There were no ghettos for Jews among the Donauschwaben in my home town Batschsentiwan a almost 100% all Catholic town. However noncatholic minority such as Jews did live undisturbed in their quarter until about 1940. It changed when the Hungarians reclaimed their territories take away in 1920 and annexed to Serbia and later became Yugoslavia. At that time they fled where too I do not know. I > On Mar 29, 2018, at 2:48 PM, karen mcbride <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello Linda, > I would suggest you consider the designations culturally or sociologically rather than in regard to Liturgy.  In the Towns and Villages for hundreds of years, a culture of "them" and "us" existed..mostly due to persecution and pogroms by governments.  There was of course antisemitism and ghettos for Jews, but also there was great awareness of who was classic Roman Catholic, who was Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Lutheran Evangelical, etc.  Religion determined for several hundred years who could actually migrate to the Banat area and when. As a result, when the records were originally made, labels were paramount and fairly specific as to what Church you belonged.  The labels were transcribed to the FBs with as much precision as possible as I understand it and so labels that made great sense in the past may not be so obvious now. > Karen McBride > >    On Thursday, March 29, 2018 1:25 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: > > > So, after making my way through a variety of articles online about various churches, I have to admit I still don’t really understand what “GRNU" is getting at. > > Protestants like Lutherans or Calvinists (Reformed) as Christians not Roman/Greek Catholic and not Greek Orthodox, as Dan suggested, would make sense.  I’m not sure then why the “Greek” part of the label - I can’t find any mention of differences in liturgy, etc. between those groups in the Banat and elsewhere. And the GRNU abbreviation itself doesn’t seem that common in the other FBs I’ve looked at, though maybe that’s just a function of the religions prevalent in each town. > > This would just be one of those things that I’d notice and then move > on, except of course it’s a label attached to a possible relative and > now I feel compelled to understand it. :-) > > -Linda > > >> On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Rose Mary Keller Hughes <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> In Semlak, there is a Greek Orthodox church.  I don't know how large their congregation is but the church looks quite nice. However, the DS churches in the community look lovely in photos until someone points out the cracks in the walls and ceilings. >> >> Rose Mary >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 3:40 PM >> To: Linda Sohl <[email protected]>; DVHH Mail List >> <[email protected]>; Roy Engel >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? >> >> Linda, >> >> Though I’m not an expert in this field, I interpreted that to mean a Greek church in the Protestant tradition, rather than Orthodox or Catholic.  I believe that such Greek denominations were a small minority at that time in comparison to Orthodox and Catholic.  I’ve never run across any in my research, but they are obviously out there, based on your question and the abbreviation reference in the Familienbuch Bogarosch.  Here is a link that might explain this better than I can. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches> >> >> Best to you in your research. >> >> Dan >> >> >>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for that information, Dan. It does lead me to an obvious follow-up question, though - which churches (then, or now) would be considered "Greek, not united" that are neither Greek-Catholic (one of the 23 churches in communion with Rome, listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_particular_churches_and_liturgical_rites#Particular_churches_sui_iuris ), nor Greek Orthodox? >>> >>> -Linda >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> In the Abkürzungen (abbreviations) section of the Familienbuch Bogarosch, under Konfessionen (Religious Denominations), grnu is Griechisch nicht uniert (Greek not united), differentiated from go (Griechisch-orthodox) and grka (Griechisch-katholisch). >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2018, at 11:44 PM, Roy Engel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have never seen that abbreviation before.  I am assuming that it is German and I can't think what the GR would stand for, but the NU might stand for "Namen Unbekannt" (Name Unknown).  This is just a guess. >>>>> Roy >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:54 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the new Gross Betschkerek familienbuch, does anyone know what the abbreviation “GRNU” means? It’s not listed up front with other abbreviations (or else I’ve overlooked it). I see it following some people’s names, where there might otherwise be a note about a person’s occupation or marital status. >>>>> >>>>> -Linda >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > >   _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb Mailing Lists.  Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ Your privacy is important to us.  View our Privacy Statement at https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/privacystatement for more information.  Use of RootsWeb is subject to our Terms and Conditions https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/termsandconditions RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb Mailing Lists.  Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ Your privacy is important to us.  View our Privacy Statement at https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/privacystatement for more information.  Use of RootsWeb is subject to our Terms and Conditions https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/termsandconditions RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb Mailing Lists. Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ Your privacy is important to us. View our Privacy Statement at https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/privacystatement for more information. Use of RootsWeb is subject to our Terms and Conditions https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/termsandconditions RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Dear Tamas, With all due respect, I am certain you believe there were no ghettos in any sense of the word in Hungary until the Nazis arrived in the 1930s.  In fact, history of Eastern Europe and Hungary is rift with oppression, displacement and murder of Jews.  Since the year 4-7 AD, every country and government in the world considered Jews as "separate" either by their own design, or by force, or by both.  No government, including the United States, ever actually believed Jews were anything but "different" and in most cases heretical.   Some governments tolerated their Jewish populations for varying reasons throughout history, but for the most part Jews constantly struggled with being too rich, too poor, too involved, too political, not political enough, etc. and then were set upon in one way or another by the existing powers that be, and were "permitted" to live where they were or then removed in one way or another to somewhere else.  Their existence in a place was always decided by others and never secure in any sense of the word. Hungary was no exception to this historically.  The history of the Jewish populations in Buda is a prime example as it is a story of periods of "tolerance" for Jews, and periods of complete intolerance and thus expulsion for Jews, over many centuries.  Which ever period you reference, the fact is the Jewish populations had to "depend" on tolerance of one kind or another in order to be "allowed" to stay.   In this discussion your reference to the Mayflower is badly placed...those on the Mayflower were "separatists" who emigrated to America in order to isolate themselves and control completely everyone within their sect and environment and establish what could be called a caliphate or dare I say it, a ghetto, in the New World.  They wanted nothing to do with people of other religions and their edicts were very similar to ISIS in actuality, and their desire for isolation, control, and exclusion was vicious.  Our collective desire, in the face of the unspeakable brutality of the Nazis, to claim "tolerance" and equanimity toward Jews, is heartwarming, but historically does not hold-up in the face of facts.  And please do not confuse this discussion with any reference to anyone's personal experience or personal family history.  My discussion is completely academic with no personal reference to anyone's Town or Village or Family.  Karen.   On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 1:15 PM, FREY Tamas <[email protected]> wrote: Hello Karen, I was actually replying to Hans Kopp, I only just read your original message. To my knowledge, in Hungary, there were no ghettos (in any sense of the word) for Jews or for any other ethnicities, until the Nazi occupation. Jews were actually much more assimilated in Hungary than possibly anywhere else in the world. Also, as much I'm aware, there were no government or any other types of progroms in Hungary against any religious minorities. Except, perhaps, for a few isolated local incidents between 1881-1884, where the government intervened. On the contrary, Jewish victims of pogroms in Russia fled to Hungary... There was the counter-reformation in the 1700's and the persecution of protestants by the Hapsburgs, but I don't think that that's what you meant. A not very well known fact: it was in Torda, part of Transylvania at the time (today Romania), in 1568, where Hungarian nobles signed a decree guaranteeing a form of religious tolerance that was unprecedented on a global scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Torda. It was a half a century before the Mayflower appeared on the American coasts... It is not by chance that you see villages all across the Carpathian basin with several church steeples, sometimes synagogues as well. People of all religions and ethnicities lived quite peacefully together here, for centuries. If there was turmoil, it was mostly invasions from external powers. Tamás Frey -----Original Message----- From: karen mcbride <[email protected]> Sent: mardi 3 avril 2018 18:08 To: Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) <[email protected]> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? Hello Tamas, Your information is correct in regard to oppression and violence in the ghettos, whether Jewish areas or others, in the time frame you mention.  The word "ghetto" does not always connote violence.  It means a "segregated or separate area" of ethnic or religious people within a Town or City.  That was the way I was using the word with no intention of indicating oppression or violence. Example: Many decades before WWI and WWII, Budapest had many Jews who lived and worked freely in the City.  They however had their own section or area within the City where they lived and worshiped exclusively...a ghetto.  The Nazis used the word pejoratively and violently displaced people into exclusive areas to perpetrate their evil forever more creating an ugly connotation for the word. Karen.      On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 4:12 AM, FREY Tamas <[email protected]> wrote: Actually, Jewish ghettos were only created after the German occupation of Hungary on 19 March, 1944. In the 1940's, antisemitism was a part of the Hungarian government's policy - but to a large extent it served to keep Hungary's ally, the Germans abay and to prevent a German occupation. Germany, however, did occupy Hungary in the end and that is when the ghettos were created (with the help of the Hungarian police forces). -----Original Message----- From: Hans Kopp via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> Sent: lundi 2 avril 2018 19:38 To: karen mcbride <[email protected]>; Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) <[email protected]> Cc: Hans Kopp <[email protected]> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? Let us understand history correctly. There were no ghettos for Jews among the Donauschwaben in my home town Batschsentiwan a almost 100% all Catholic town. However noncatholic minority such as Jews did live undisturbed in their quarter until about 1940. It changed when the Hungarians reclaimed their territories take away in 1920 and annexed to Serbia and later became Yugoslavia. At that time they fled where too I do not know. I > On Mar 29, 2018, at 2:48 PM, karen mcbride <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello Linda, > I would suggest you consider the designations culturally or sociologically rather than in regard to Liturgy.  In the Towns and Villages for hundreds of years, a culture of "them" and "us" existed..mostly due to persecution and pogroms by governments.  There was of course antisemitism and ghettos for Jews, but also there was great awareness of who was classic Roman Catholic, who was Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Lutheran Evangelical, etc.  Religion determined for several hundred years who could actually migrate to the Banat area and when. As a result, when the records were originally made, labels were paramount and fairly specific as to what Church you belonged.  The labels were transcribed to the FBs with as much precision as possible as I understand it and so labels that made great sense in the past may not be so obvious now. > Karen McBride > >    On Thursday, March 29, 2018 1:25 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: > > > So, after making my way through a variety of articles online about various churches, I have to admit I still don’t really understand what “GRNU" is getting at. > > Protestants like Lutherans or Calvinists (Reformed) as Christians not Roman/Greek Catholic and not Greek Orthodox, as Dan suggested, would make sense.  I’m not sure then why the “Greek” part of the label - I can’t find any mention of differences in liturgy, etc. between those groups in the Banat and elsewhere. And the GRNU abbreviation itself doesn’t seem that common in the other FBs I’ve looked at, though maybe that’s just a function of the religions prevalent in each town. > > This would just be one of those things that I’d notice and then move > on, except of course it’s a label attached to a possible relative and > now I feel compelled to understand it. :-) > > -Linda > > >> On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Rose Mary Keller Hughes <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> In Semlak, there is a Greek Orthodox church.  I don't know how large their congregation is but the church looks quite nice. However, the DS churches in the community look lovely in photos until someone points out the cracks in the walls and ceilings. >> >> Rose Mary >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 3:40 PM >> To: Linda Sohl <[email protected]>; DVHH Mail List >> <[email protected]>; Roy Engel >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? >> >> Linda, >> >> Though I’m not an expert in this field, I interpreted that to mean a Greek church in the Protestant tradition, rather than Orthodox or Catholic.  I believe that such Greek denominations were a small minority at that time in comparison to Orthodox and Catholic.  I’ve never run across any in my research, but they are obviously out there, based on your question and the abbreviation reference in the Familienbuch Bogarosch.  Here is a link that might explain this better than I can. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches> >> >> Best to you in your research. >> >> Dan >> >> >>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for that information, Dan. It does lead me to an obvious follow-up question, though - which churches (then, or now) would be considered "Greek, not united" that are neither Greek-Catholic (one of the 23 churches in communion with Rome, listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_particular_churches_and_liturgical_rites#Particular_churches_sui_iuris ), nor Greek Orthodox? >>> >>> -Linda >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> In the Abkürzungen (abbreviations) section of the Familienbuch Bogarosch, under Konfessionen (Religious Denominations), grnu is Griechisch nicht uniert (Greek not united), differentiated from go (Griechisch-orthodox) and grka (Griechisch-katholisch). >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2018, at 11:44 PM, Roy Engel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have never seen that abbreviation before.  I am assuming that it is German and I can't think what the GR would stand for, but the NU might stand for "Namen Unbekannt" (Name Unknown).  This is just a guess. >>>>> Roy >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:54 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the new Gross Betschkerek familienbuch, does anyone know what the abbreviation “GRNU” means? It’s not listed up front with other abbreviations (or else I’ve overlooked it). I see it following some people’s names, where there might otherwise be a note about a person’s occupation or marital status. >>>>> >>>>> -Linda >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > >   _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb Mailing Lists.  Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ Your privacy is important to us.  View our Privacy Statement at https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/privacystatement for more information.  Use of RootsWeb is subject to our Terms and Conditions https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/termsandconditions RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb Mailing Lists.  Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ Your privacy is important to us.  View our Privacy Statement at https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/privacystatement for more information.  Use of RootsWeb is subject to our Terms and Conditions https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/termsandconditions RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hello Karen, I was actually replying to Hans Kopp, I only just read your original message. To my knowledge, in Hungary, there were no ghettos (in any sense of the word) for Jews or for any other ethnicities, until the Nazi occupation. Jews were actually much more assimilated in Hungary than possibly anywhere else in the world. Also, as much I'm aware, there were no government or any other types of progroms in Hungary against any religious minorities. Except, perhaps, for a few isolated local incidents between 1881-1884, where the government intervened. On the contrary, Jewish victims of pogroms in Russia fled to Hungary... There was the counter-reformation in the 1700's and the persecution of protestants by the Hapsburgs, but I don't think that that's what you meant. A not very well known fact: it was in Torda, part of Transylvania at the time (today Romania), in 1568, where Hungarian nobles signed a decree guaranteeing a form of religious tolerance that was unprecedented on a global scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Torda. It was a half a century before the Mayflower appeared on the American coasts... It is not by chance that you see villages all across the Carpathian basin with several church steeples, sometimes synagogues as well. People of all religions and ethnicities lived quite peacefully together here, for centuries. If there was turmoil, it was mostly invasions from external powers. Tamás Frey -----Original Message----- From: karen mcbride <[email protected]> Sent: mardi 3 avril 2018 18:08 To: Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) <[email protected]> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? Hello Tamas, Your information is correct in regard to oppression and violence in the ghettos, whether Jewish areas or others, in the time frame you mention.  The word "ghetto" does not always connote violence.  It means a "segregated or separate area" of ethnic or religious people within a Town or City.  That was the way I was using the word with no intention of indicating oppression or violence. Example: Many decades before WWI and WWII, Budapest had many Jews who lived and worked freely in the City.  They however had their own section or area within the City where they lived and worshiped exclusively...a ghetto.  The Nazis used the word pejoratively and violently displaced people into exclusive areas to perpetrate their evil forever more creating an ugly connotation for the word. Karen.  On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 4:12 AM, FREY Tamas <[email protected]> wrote: Actually, Jewish ghettos were only created after the German occupation of Hungary on 19 March, 1944. In the 1940's, antisemitism was a part of the Hungarian government's policy - but to a large extent it served to keep Hungary's ally, the Germans abay and to prevent a German occupation. Germany, however, did occupy Hungary in the end and that is when the ghettos were created (with the help of the Hungarian police forces). -----Original Message----- From: Hans Kopp via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> Sent: lundi 2 avril 2018 19:38 To: karen mcbride <[email protected]>; Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) <[email protected]> Cc: Hans Kopp <[email protected]> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? Let us understand history correctly. There were no ghettos for Jews among the Donauschwaben in my home town Batschsentiwan a almost 100% all Catholic town. However noncatholic minority such as Jews did live undisturbed in their quarter until about 1940. It changed when the Hungarians reclaimed their territories take away in 1920 and annexed to Serbia and later became Yugoslavia. At that time they fled where too I do not know. I > On Mar 29, 2018, at 2:48 PM, karen mcbride <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello Linda, > I would suggest you consider the designations culturally or sociologically rather than in regard to Liturgy.  In the Towns and Villages for hundreds of years, a culture of "them" and "us" existed..mostly due to persecution and pogroms by governments.  There was of course antisemitism and ghettos for Jews, but also there was great awareness of who was classic Roman Catholic, who was Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Lutheran Evangelical, etc.  Religion determined for several hundred years who could actually migrate to the Banat area and when. As a result, when the records were originally made, labels were paramount and fairly specific as to what Church you belonged.  The labels were transcribed to the FBs with as much precision as possible as I understand it and so labels that made great sense in the past may not be so obvious now. > Karen McBride > >    On Thursday, March 29, 2018 1:25 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: > > > So, after making my way through a variety of articles online about various churches, I have to admit I still don’t really understand what “GRNU" is getting at. > > Protestants like Lutherans or Calvinists (Reformed) as Christians not Roman/Greek Catholic and not Greek Orthodox, as Dan suggested, would make sense.  I’m not sure then why the “Greek” part of the label - I can’t find any mention of differences in liturgy, etc. between those groups in the Banat and elsewhere. And the GRNU abbreviation itself doesn’t seem that common in the other FBs I’ve looked at, though maybe that’s just a function of the religions prevalent in each town. > > This would just be one of those things that I’d notice and then move > on, except of course it’s a label attached to a possible relative and > now I feel compelled to understand it. :-) > > -Linda > > >> On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Rose Mary Keller Hughes <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> In Semlak, there is a Greek Orthodox church.  I don't know how large their congregation is but the church looks quite nice. However, the DS churches in the community look lovely in photos until someone points out the cracks in the walls and ceilings. >> >> Rose Mary >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 3:40 PM >> To: Linda Sohl <[email protected]>; DVHH Mail List >> <[email protected]>; Roy Engel >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? >> >> Linda, >> >> Though I’m not an expert in this field, I interpreted that to mean a Greek church in the Protestant tradition, rather than Orthodox or Catholic.  I believe that such Greek denominations were a small minority at that time in comparison to Orthodox and Catholic.  I’ve never run across any in my research, but they are obviously out there, based on your question and the abbreviation reference in the Familienbuch Bogarosch.  Here is a link that might explain this better than I can. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches> >> >> Best to you in your research. >> >> Dan >> >> >>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for that information, Dan. It does lead me to an obvious follow-up question, though - which churches (then, or now) would be considered "Greek, not united" that are neither Greek-Catholic (one of the 23 churches in communion with Rome, listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_particular_churches_and_liturgical_rites#Particular_churches_sui_iuris ), nor Greek Orthodox? >>> >>> -Linda >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> In the Abkürzungen (abbreviations) section of the Familienbuch Bogarosch, under Konfessionen (Religious Denominations), grnu is Griechisch nicht uniert (Greek not united), differentiated from go (Griechisch-orthodox) and grka (Griechisch-katholisch). >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2018, at 11:44 PM, Roy Engel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have never seen that abbreviation before.  I am assuming that it is German and I can't think what the GR would stand for, but the NU might stand for "Namen Unbekannt" (Name Unknown).  This is just a guess. >>>>> Roy >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:54 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the new Gross Betschkerek familienbuch, does anyone know what the abbreviation “GRNU” means? It’s not listed up front with other abbreviations (or else I’ve overlooked it). I see it following some people’s names, where there might otherwise be a note about a person’s occupation or marital status. >>>>> >>>>> -Linda >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb Mailing Lists. Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ Your privacy is important to us. 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Hello Susan, in addition to Alice's reply, I believe you're sending your request to the wrong e-mail. In the webpage Alice has sent us, there is this > E-mail Sala de studiu: [email protected] (Sala de studiu = Study room - I know it because it's similar to my native language Portuguese) and E-mail: [email protected] you should send your request to this one Good luck! ???? 2018-04-03 13:03 GMT-03:00 Alice <[email protected]>: > Susan, > > Did you try sending your request to the email contact for the county > containing the records using this info I found? > > Go to: > http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/en/local-archives/ > to see the map that will direct you to the county-specific pages. > > For example, for Timis county, it will direct you to: > http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/directii-judetene/timis/ > > For Arad, http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/directii-judetene/arad/ > > From there, the email contact for Timis shows > as:[email protected] > > and for Arad as: [email protected] > > > On Apr 3, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi Alice. > > This is what I received back from the archive: > > > > We invite you to study at our study room, which is from Monday to > Thursday from 9.00 to 14.30. > > > > Regards, > > Superior inspector > > Narcisa Furda > > > > > > > > Susan > > > >> On Apr 2, 2018, at 8:59 PM, Alice <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> The page I received from the Romanian archives was a copy of the church > baptismal record for my grandmother. > >> > >>> On Apr 2, 2018, at 10:51 PM, Glenn Schwartz <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church > record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think > the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available > through researchers in Romania and some are online. > >>> > >>> Glenn Schwartz > >>> > >>> President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) > >>> Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; > Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, > Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, > Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, > Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. > >>> Email: [email protected] > >>> > >>>> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: > >>>> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. > >>>> > >>>> Kathy Zollner Meany > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> So it seems we have to physically go there? > >>>>> > >>>>> Susan > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES > <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Can we ask for records in writing? > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> . The authorities there > >>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the > civil > >>>>>>> records in Arad. > >>>>>> Susan > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> . The authorities there > >>>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the > civil > >>>>>>>> records in Arad. > >>> > >>> Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church > record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think > the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available > through researchers in Romania and some are online. > >>> > >>> Glenn Schwartz > >>> > >>> President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) > >>> Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; > Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, > Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, > Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, > Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. > >>> Email: [email protected] > >>> > >>>> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: > >>>> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. > >>>> > >>>> Kathy Zollner Meany > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> So it seems we have to physically go there? > >>>>> > >>>>> Susan > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES > <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Can we ask for records in writing? > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> . The authorities there > >>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the > civil > >>>>>>> records in Arad. > >>>>>> Susan > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> . The authorities there > >>>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the > civil > >>>>>>>> records in Arad. > >>> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb > Mailing Lists. Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb. > ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ > > To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:donauschwaben-villages- > [email protected]?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe > > View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb. > ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ > > Your privacy is important to us. View our Privacy Statement at > https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/privacystatement for more information. > Use of RootsWeb is subject to our Terms and Conditions > https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/termsandconditions > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

Hello Tamas, Your information is correct in regard to oppression and violence in the ghettos, whether Jewish areas or others, in the time frame you mention.  The word "ghetto" does not always connote violence.  It means a "segregated or separate area" of ethnic or religious people within a Town or City.  That was the way I was using the word with no intention of indicating oppression or violence. Example: Many decades before WWI and WWII, Budapest had many Jews who lived and worked freely in the City.  They however had their own section or area within the City where they lived and worshiped exclusively...a ghetto.  The Nazis used the word pejoratively and violently displaced people into exclusive areas to perpetrate their evil forever more creating an ugly connotation for the word.   Karen.  On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 4:12 AM, FREY Tamas <[email protected]> wrote: Actually, Jewish ghettos were only created after the German occupation of Hungary on 19 March, 1944. In the 1940's, antisemitism was a part of the Hungarian government's policy - but to a large extent it served to keep Hungary's ally, the Germans abay and to prevent a German occupation. Germany, however, did occupy Hungary in the end and that is when the ghettos were created (with the help of the Hungarian police forces). -----Original Message----- From: Hans Kopp via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> Sent: lundi 2 avril 2018 19:38 To: karen mcbride <[email protected]>; Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) <[email protected]> Cc: Hans Kopp <[email protected]> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? Let us understand history correctly. There were no ghettos for Jews among the Donauschwaben in my home town Batschsentiwan a almost 100% all Catholic town. However noncatholic minority such as Jews did live undisturbed in their quarter until about 1940. It changed when the Hungarians reclaimed their territories take away in 1920 and annexed to Serbia and later became Yugoslavia. At that time they fled where too I do not know. I > On Mar 29, 2018, at 2:48 PM, karen mcbride <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello Linda, > I would suggest you consider the designations culturally or sociologically rather than in regard to Liturgy.  In the Towns and Villages for hundreds of years, a culture of "them" and "us" existed..mostly due to persecution and pogroms by governments.  There was of course antisemitism and ghettos for Jews, but also there was great awareness of who was classic Roman Catholic, who was Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Lutheran Evangelical, etc.  Religion determined for several hundred years who could actually migrate to the Banat area and when. As a result, when the records were originally made, labels were paramount and fairly specific as to what Church you belonged.  The labels were transcribed to the FBs with as much precision as possible as I understand it and so labels that made great sense in the past may not be so obvious now. > Karen McBride      > >    On Thursday, March 29, 2018 1:25 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: > > > So, after making my way through a variety of articles online about various churches, I have to admit I still don’t really understand what “GRNU" is getting at. > > Protestants like Lutherans or Calvinists (Reformed) as Christians not Roman/Greek Catholic and not Greek Orthodox, as Dan suggested, would make sense.  I’m not sure then why the “Greek” part of the label - I can’t find any mention of differences in liturgy, etc. between those groups in the Banat and elsewhere. And the GRNU abbreviation itself doesn’t seem that common in the other FBs I’ve looked at, though maybe that’s just a function of the religions prevalent in each town. > > This would just be one of those things that I’d notice and then move on, except of course it’s a label attached to a possible relative and now I feel compelled to understand it. :-)  > > -Linda > > >> On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Rose Mary Keller Hughes <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> In Semlak, there is a Greek Orthodox church.  I don't know how large their congregation is but the church looks quite nice. However, the DS churches in the community look lovely in photos until someone points out the cracks in the walls and ceilings. >> >> Rose Mary >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 3:40 PM >> To: Linda Sohl <[email protected]>; DVHH Mail List <[email protected]>; Roy Engel <[email protected]> >> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? >> >> Linda, >> >> Though I’m not an expert in this field, I interpreted that to mean a Greek church in the Protestant tradition, rather than Orthodox or Catholic.  I believe that such Greek denominations were a small minority at that time in comparison to Orthodox and Catholic.  I’ve never run across any in my research, but they are obviously out there, based on your question and the abbreviation reference in the Familienbuch Bogarosch.  Here is a link that might explain this better than I can. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches> >> >> Best to you in your research. >> >> Dan >> >> >>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for that information, Dan. It does lead me to an obvious follow-up question, though - which churches (then, or now) would be considered "Greek, not united" that are neither Greek-Catholic (one of the 23 churches in communion with Rome, listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_particular_churches_and_liturgical_rites#Particular_churches_sui_iuris ), nor Greek Orthodox? >>> >>> -Linda >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> In the Abkürzungen (abbreviations) section of the Familienbuch Bogarosch, under Konfessionen (Religious Denominations), grnu is Griechisch nicht uniert (Greek not united), differentiated from go (Griechisch-orthodox) and grka (Griechisch-katholisch). >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2018, at 11:44 PM, Roy Engel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have never seen that abbreviation before.  I am assuming that it is German and I can't think what the GR would stand for, but the NU might stand for "Namen Unbekannt" (Name Unknown).  This is just a guess. >>>>> Roy >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:54 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the new Gross Betschkerek familienbuch, does anyone know what the abbreviation “GRNU” means? It’s not listed up front with other abbreviations (or else I’ve overlooked it). I see it following some people’s names, where there might otherwise be a note about a person’s occupation or marital status. >>>>> >>>>> -Linda >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > >

Susan, Did you try sending your request to the email contact for the county containing the records using this info I found? Go to: http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/en/local-archives/ to see the map that will direct you to the county-specific pages. For example, for Timis county, it will direct you to: http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/directii-judetene/timis/ For Arad, http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/directii-judetene/arad/ From there, the email contact for Timis shows as:[email protected] and for Arad as: [email protected] > On Apr 3, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Alice. > This is what I received back from the archive: > > We invite you to study at our study room, which is from Monday to Thursday from 9.00 to 14.30. > > Regards, > Superior inspector > Narcisa Furda > > > > Susan > >> On Apr 2, 2018, at 8:59 PM, Alice <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> The page I received from the Romanian archives was a copy of the church baptismal record for my grandmother. >> >>> On Apr 2, 2018, at 10:51 PM, Glenn Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available through researchers in Romania and some are online. >>> >>> Glenn Schwartz >>> >>> President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) >>> Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. >>> Email: [email protected] >>> >>>> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: >>>> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. >>>> >>>> Kathy Zollner Meany >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> So it seems we have to physically go there? >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>>>>> >>>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>>> records in Arad. >>>>>> Susan >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>>>> records in Arad. >>> >>> Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available through researchers in Romania and some are online. >>> >>> Glenn Schwartz >>> >>> President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) >>> Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. >>> Email: [email protected] >>> >>>> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: >>>> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. >>>> >>>> Kathy Zollner Meany >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> So it seems we have to physically go there? >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>>>>> >>>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>>> records in Arad. >>>>>> Susan >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>>>> records in Arad. >>> >> >

I just did. This is the responses: We invite you to study at our study room, which is from Monday to Thursday from 9.00 to 14.30. Regards, Superior inspector Narcisa Furda Susan > On Apr 2, 2018, at 8:01 AM, Kathy Meany <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi, > > Yes, you may request in writing. My cousin obtained my uncle's birth record that way. My point is you need to contact the nearest city with civil records near the village - like Timisoara or Arad. > > Kathy Zollner Meany > > Kathy Meany, CPTM > Phoenix Learning Solutions, LLC > Tel: 914-762-2041 > Mobile: 904-614-0622 > www.phoenixlearningsolutions.com > > Visionary Solutions for Your Learning and Development Needs > >> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Susan Dekom <[email protected]> wrote: >> Can we ask for records in writing? >> >>> . The authorities there >>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>> records in Arad. >> >> Susan >> >> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> . The authorities there >>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>> records in Arad. >

Hi Alice. This is what I received back from the archive: We invite you to study at our study room, which is from Monday to Thursday from 9.00 to 14.30. Regards, Superior inspector Narcisa Furda Susan > On Apr 2, 2018, at 8:59 PM, Alice <[email protected]> wrote: > > The page I received from the Romanian archives was a copy of the church baptismal record for my grandmother. > >> On Apr 2, 2018, at 10:51 PM, Glenn Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available through researchers in Romania and some are online. >> >> Glenn Schwartz >> >> President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) >> Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. >> Email: [email protected] >> >>> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: >>> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. >>> >>> Kathy Zollner Meany >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> So it seems we have to physically go there? >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>>>> >>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>> records in Arad. >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>>> records in Arad. >> >> Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available through researchers in Romania and some are online. >> >> Glenn Schwartz >> >> President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) >> Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. >> Email: [email protected] >> >>> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: >>> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. >>> >>> Kathy Zollner Meany >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> So it seems we have to physically go there? >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>>>> >>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>> records in Arad. >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>>> records in Arad. >> >

Hello Tamas. I just received this from the archive place for Arad. Did I ask the wrong org? Begin forwarded message: > From: [email protected] > Date: April 2, 2018 at 11:49:22 PM PDT > To: [email protected] > We invite you to study at our study room, which is from Monday to Thursday from 9.00 to 14.30. Regards, Superior inspector Narcisa Furda > > > > Va invitam sa cercetati la sala de studiu a institutiei noastre al carei orar este de luni pana joi de la orele 9 la 14.30. > > Cu stima, > Inspector superior > Furdea Narcisa

Actually, Jewish ghettos were only created after the German occupation of Hungary on 19 March, 1944. In the 1940's, antisemitism was a part of the Hungarian government's policy - but to a large extent it served to keep Hungary's ally, the Germans abay and to prevent a German occupation. Germany, however, did occupy Hungary in the end and that is when the ghettos were created (with the help of the Hungarian police forces). -----Original Message----- From: Hans Kopp via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> Sent: lundi 2 avril 2018 19:38 To: karen mcbride <[email protected]>; Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) <[email protected]> Cc: Hans Kopp <[email protected]> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? Let us understand history correctly. There were no ghettos for Jews among the Donauschwaben in my home town Batschsentiwan a almost 100% all Catholic town. However noncatholic minority such as Jews did live undisturbed in their quarter until about 1940. It changed when the Hungarians reclaimed their territories take away in 1920 and annexed to Serbia and later became Yugoslavia. At that time they fled where too I do not know. I > On Mar 29, 2018, at 2:48 PM, karen mcbride <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello Linda, > I would suggest you consider the designations culturally or sociologically rather than in regard to Liturgy. In the Towns and Villages for hundreds of years, a culture of "them" and "us" existed..mostly due to persecution and pogroms by governments. There was of course antisemitism and ghettos for Jews, but also there was great awareness of who was classic Roman Catholic, who was Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Lutheran Evangelical, etc. Religion determined for several hundred years who could actually migrate to the Banat area and when. As a result, when the records were originally made, labels were paramount and fairly specific as to what Church you belonged. The labels were transcribed to the FBs with as much precision as possible as I understand it and so labels that made great sense in the past may not be so obvious now. > Karen McBride > > On Thursday, March 29, 2018 1:25 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: > > > So, after making my way through a variety of articles online about various churches, I have to admit I still don’t really understand what “GRNU" is getting at. > > Protestants like Lutherans or Calvinists (Reformed) as Christians not Roman/Greek Catholic and not Greek Orthodox, as Dan suggested, would make sense. I’m not sure then why the “Greek” part of the label - I can’t find any mention of differences in liturgy, etc. between those groups in the Banat and elsewhere. And the GRNU abbreviation itself doesn’t seem that common in the other FBs I’ve looked at, though maybe that’s just a function of the religions prevalent in each town. > > This would just be one of those things that I’d notice and then move on, except of course it’s a label attached to a possible relative and now I feel compelled to understand it. :-) > > -Linda > > >> On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Rose Mary Keller Hughes <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> In Semlak, there is a Greek Orthodox church. I don't know how large their congregation is but the church looks quite nice. However, the DS churches in the community look lovely in photos until someone points out the cracks in the walls and ceilings. >> >> Rose Mary >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 3:40 PM >> To: Linda Sohl <[email protected]>; DVHH Mail List <[email protected]>; Roy Engel <[email protected]> >> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? >> >> Linda, >> >> Though I’m not an expert in this field, I interpreted that to mean a Greek church in the Protestant tradition, rather than Orthodox or Catholic. I believe that such Greek denominations were a small minority at that time in comparison to Orthodox and Catholic. I’ve never run across any in my research, but they are obviously out there, based on your question and the abbreviation reference in the Familienbuch Bogarosch. Here is a link that might explain this better than I can. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches> >> >> Best to you in your research. >> >> Dan >> >> >>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for that information, Dan. It does lead me to an obvious follow-up question, though - which churches (then, or now) would be considered "Greek, not united" that are neither Greek-Catholic (one of the 23 churches in communion with Rome, listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_particular_churches_and_liturgical_rites#Particular_churches_sui_iuris ), nor Greek Orthodox? >>> >>> -Linda >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> In the Abkürzungen (abbreviations) section of the Familienbuch Bogarosch, under Konfessionen (Religious Denominations), grnu is Griechisch nicht uniert (Greek not united), differentiated from go (Griechisch-orthodox) and grka (Griechisch-katholisch). >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2018, at 11:44 PM, Roy Engel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have never seen that abbreviation before. I am assuming that it is German and I can't think what the GR would stand for, but the NU might stand for "Namen Unbekannt" (Name Unknown). This is just a guess. >>>>> Roy >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:54 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the new Gross Betschkerek familienbuch, does anyone know what the abbreviation “GRNU” means? It’s not listed up front with other abbreviations (or else I’ve overlooked it). I see it following some people’s names, where there might otherwise be a note about a person’s occupation or marital status. >>>>> >>>>> -Linda >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > >

Hello Glenn, so the original church record would be more than an official document, right?! That`s great! I wonder if the copy of it would have the same `value`. Thank you for the information! Have a nice week ???? 2018-04-03 0:51 GMT-03:00 Glenn Schwartz <[email protected]>: > Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church > record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think > the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available > through researchers in Romania and some are online. > > Glenn Schwartz > > President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) > Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, > Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in > Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, > Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in > Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. > Email: [email protected] > > On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: > >> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. >> >> Kathy Zollner Meany >> >> >> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> So it seems we have to physically go there? >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>>> >>>> . The authorities there >>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>> records in Arad. >>>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> . The authorities there >>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>> records in Arad. >>>>>> >>>>> >

Hello Alice, do you think it`s possible to obtain the church baptismal record from the Romanian archives even if my grandfather has passed away? Because I was told to get the official birth certificate, from the city hall, he would have to be alive. Thank you and have a lovely Tuesday ???? 2018-04-03 0:59 GMT-03:00 Alice <[email protected]>: > The page I received from the Romanian archives was a copy of the church > baptismal record for my grandmother. > > > On Apr 2, 2018, at 10:51 PM, Glenn Schwartz <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church > record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think > the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available > through researchers in Romania and some are online. > > > > Glenn Schwartz > > > > President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) > > Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, > Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in > Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, > Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in > Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. > > Email: [email protected] > > > >> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: > >> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. > >> > >> Kathy Zollner Meany > >> > >> > >>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> So it seems we have to physically go there? > >>> > >>> Susan > >>> > >>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Can we ask for records in writing? > >>>> > >>>>> . The authorities there > >>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil > >>>>> records in Arad. > >>>> Susan > >>>> > >>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> . The authorities there > >>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil > >>>>>> records in Arad. > > > > Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church > record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think > the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available > through researchers in Romania and some are online. > > > > Glenn Schwartz > > > > President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) > > Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, > Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in > Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, > Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in > Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. > > Email: [email protected] > > > >> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: > >> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. > >> > >> Kathy Zollner Meany > >> > >> > >>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> So it seems we have to physically go there? > >>> > >>> Susan > >>> > >>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Can we ask for records in writing? > >>>> > >>>>> . The authorities there > >>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil > >>>>> records in Arad. > >>>> Susan > >>>> > >>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> . The authorities there > >>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil > >>>>>> records in Arad. > > > >

The page I received from the Romanian archives was a copy of the church baptismal record for my grandmother. > On Apr 2, 2018, at 10:51 PM, Glenn Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote: > > Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available through researchers in Romania and some are online. > > Glenn Schwartz > > President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) > Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. > Email: [email protected] > >> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: >> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. >> >> Kathy Zollner Meany >> >> >>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> So it seems we have to physically go there? >>> >>> Susan >>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>>> >>>>> . The authorities there >>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>> records in Arad. >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>> records in Arad. > > Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available through researchers in Romania and some are online. > > Glenn Schwartz > > President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) > Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. > Email: [email protected] > >> On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: >> Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. >> >> Kathy Zollner Meany >> >> >>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> So it seems we have to physically go there? >>> >>> Susan >>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>>> >>>>> . The authorities there >>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>> records in Arad. >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> . The authorities there >>>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>>> records in Arad. >

Don't forget the alternative to a certificate - the original church record. In fact, the church record is a primary source, where as I think the certificate would be a secondary source. Church records are available through researchers in Romania and some are online. Glenn Schwartz President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. Email: [email protected] On 4/2/2018 6:06 AM, Kathy Meany wrote: > Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. > > Kathy Zollner Meany > > >> On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> So it seems we have to physically go there? >> >> Susan >> >>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>> >>>> . The authorities there >>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>> records in Arad. >>> Susan >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>>> . The authorities there >>>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>>> records in Arad.

Sorry for you loss. After 61 Year the emptiness seems to be devastating have faith and hope can help you keep him in your memoires. Hans. > On Apr 1, 2018, at 12:23 AM, Rose Mary Keller Hughes <[email protected]> wrote: > > So sorry to read of your loss. My husband passed away January 2016 and I > still struggle. Just want you to know that the loneliness is what you must > learn to live with. I have made new friends and that helps a bit. When > people don't want to hear you speak about your spouse, press on. They think > you will fall into a million pieces if you say his/her name and all you want > to do that he/she was, that he/she existed. I press on and talk about my > beloved spouse. My friends have learned that I must acknowledge his space > on this planet. > > I still can't live without my precious husband and probably never will. I > do acknowledge my good luck in having him with me for 61 years. May you > life get better. Stay strong and acknowledge how lucky you were. May your > blessings become your means of going on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lisa Grammer <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 4:46 PM > To: Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands (DVHH) > <[email protected]> > Subject: [DVHH] Re: Posts to the list DELAYED for now > > if you can would you remove my email from this list to receive updates and > emails,, I am not doing any genealogy research now, just trying to learn how > to live without my spouse takes all my time,, Thank you > > > ________________________________ > From: DVHH Mailing List Administrator <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 10:56 AM > To: DVHH Mailing List > Subject: [DVHH] Posts to the list DELAYED for now > > Occasionally during the past few days, posts have been held for moderation > for no apparent reason. It seems to happening today again. I have had to > release or recreate 4 this morning. > > So there may be a delay in me releasing the posts to the list if I'm not > home (off-topic, about to go out for dim-sum). I will check regularly and > release the emails. > > Happy Easter to all! > > ----------------------------------------------- > Darlene Dimitrie > DVHH Mailing List Administrator > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus >

Let us understand history correctly. There were no ghettos for Jews among the Donauschwaben in my home town Batschsentiwan a almost 100% all Catholic town. However noncatholic minority such as Jews did live undisturbed in their quarter until about 1940. It changed when the Hungarians reclaimed their territories take away in 1920 and annexed to Serbia and later became Yugoslavia. At that time they fled where too I do not know. I > On Mar 29, 2018, at 2:48 PM, karen mcbride <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello Linda, > I would suggest you consider the designations culturally or sociologically rather than in regard to Liturgy. In the Towns and Villages for hundreds of years, a culture of "them" and "us" existed..mostly due to persecution and pogroms by governments. There was of course antisemitism and ghettos for Jews, but also there was great awareness of who was classic Roman Catholic, who was Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Lutheran Evangelical, etc. Religion determined for several hundred years who could actually migrate to the Banat area and when. As a result, when the records were originally made, labels were paramount and fairly specific as to what Church you belonged. The labels were transcribed to the FBs with as much precision as possible as I understand it and so labels that made great sense in the past may not be so obvious now. > Karen McBride > > On Thursday, March 29, 2018 1:25 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: > > > So, after making my way through a variety of articles online about various churches, I have to admit I still don’t really understand what “GRNU" is getting at. > > Protestants like Lutherans or Calvinists (Reformed) as Christians not Roman/Greek Catholic and not Greek Orthodox, as Dan suggested, would make sense. I’m not sure then why the “Greek” part of the label - I can’t find any mention of differences in liturgy, etc. between those groups in the Banat and elsewhere. And the GRNU abbreviation itself doesn’t seem that common in the other FBs I’ve looked at, though maybe that’s just a function of the religions prevalent in each town. > > This would just be one of those things that I’d notice and then move on, except of course it’s a label attached to a possible relative and now I feel compelled to understand it. :-) > > -Linda > > >> On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Rose Mary Keller Hughes <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> In Semlak, there is a Greek Orthodox church. I don't know how large their congregation is but the church looks quite nice. However, the DS churches in the community look lovely in photos until someone points out the cracks in the walls and ceilings. >> >> Rose Mary >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 3:40 PM >> To: Linda Sohl <[email protected]>; DVHH Mail List <[email protected]>; Roy Engel <[email protected]> >> Subject: [DVHH] Re: GRNU abbreviation? >> >> Linda, >> >> Though I’m not an expert in this field, I interpreted that to mean a Greek church in the Protestant tradition, rather than Orthodox or Catholic. I believe that such Greek denominations were a small minority at that time in comparison to Orthodox and Catholic. I’ve never run across any in my research, but they are obviously out there, based on your question and the abbreviation reference in the Familienbuch Bogarosch. Here is a link that might explain this better than I can. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_and_uniting_churches> >> >> Best to you in your research. >> >> Dan >> >> >>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for that information, Dan. It does lead me to an obvious follow-up question, though - which churches (then, or now) would be considered "Greek, not united" that are neither Greek-Catholic (one of the 23 churches in communion with Rome, listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_particular_churches_and_liturgical_rites#Particular_churches_sui_iuris ), nor Greek Orthodox? >>> >>> -Linda >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Daniel Sedley <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> In the Abkürzungen (abbreviations) section of the Familienbuch Bogarosch, under Konfessionen (Religious Denominations), grnu is Griechisch nicht uniert (Greek not united), differentiated from go (Griechisch-orthodox) and grka (Griechisch-katholisch). >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2018, at 11:44 PM, Roy Engel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have never seen that abbreviation before. I am assuming that it is German and I can't think what the GR would stand for, but the NU might stand for "Namen Unbekannt" (Name Unknown). This is just a guess. >>>>> Roy >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:54 PM, Linda Sohl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the new Gross Betschkerek familienbuch, does anyone know what the abbreviation “GRNU” means? It’s not listed up front with other abbreviations (or else I’ve overlooked it). I see it following some people’s names, where there might otherwise be a note about a person’s occupation or marital status. >>>>> >>>>> -Linda >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > >

Hi, Yes, you may request in writing. My cousin obtained my uncle's birth record that way. My point is you need to contact the nearest city with civil records near the village - like Timisoara or Arad. Kathy Zollner Meany *Kathy Meany, CPTM* Phoenix Learning Solutions, LLC Tel: 914-762-2041 Mobile: 904-614-0622 www.phoenixlearningsolutions.com Visionary Solutions for Your Learning and Development Needs On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Susan Dekom <[email protected]> wrote: > Can we ask for records in writing? > > . The authorities there > > told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil > > records in Arad. > > > Susan > > On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> > wrote: > > . The authorities there > > told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil > > records in Arad. > >

Yes. My cousin got my uncle’s that way. Kathy Zollner Meany > On Apr 1, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: > > So it seems we have to physically go there? > > Susan > >> On Apr 1, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Can we ask for records in writing? >> >>> . The authorities there >>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>> records in Arad. >> >> Susan >> >> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> . The authorities there >>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates at the civil >>>> records in Arad. >> >

Correction to my previous post! Go to: http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/en/local-archives/ to see the map that will direct you to the county-specific pages. For example, for Timis county, it will direct you to: http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/directii-judetene/timis/ For Arad, http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/directii-judetene/arad/ From there, the email contact for Timis shows as:[email protected] and for Arad as: [email protected] It will be interesting to see if others have success like I did in 2013. Good luck! On 4/1/2018 4:11 PM, Nathália G. wrote: > Oh by the way, > I tried this e-mail and it doesnt exist anymore. So for the people > who'll try the research, you might wanna skip this one  > > *[email protected]* > > Thanks again, Alice! > > Em dom, 1 de abr de 2018 18:08, Nathália G. > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > escreveu: > > Hello Alice, > > Thank you for your message! > I will try the emails you've sent me and I hope I'll get a > positive reply. > > Truly appreciate it. > > Wish you a happy Easter ???????? > Nath > > > Em dom, 1 de abr de 2018 17:59, Alice Gentry <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> escreveu: > > If you go to: > http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/en/first-page/ > > You will see a map and from there you can get to the county > specific material.  On the county specific page you will see > email contacts.  On the few I checked there is an English > translate button at the top of the page. > > On 4/1/2018 3:51 PM, Alice Gentry wrote: >> I went back and looked at my trail of emails.  I started with >> an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> and then received a respond from >> [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> The response email from dan.pura gave me specific >> instructions on how to proceed. >> >> So, I would recommend sending a email to the generic contact >> for the county in which your village is located. >> >> On 4/1/2018 3:44 PM, Alice Gentry wrote: >>> I started with the appropriate (for my request, Timis) >>> country records portion of the website >>> http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/directii-judetene/timis/. >>> >>> The person that I corresponded with 2013 was: >>> [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> >>> But, I am sure that has changed in the last 5 years. >>> >>> But, the documents contained some general email addresses: >>> >>> >>> There is a new (since 2013) general website relative to the >>> archives and genealogical research with this contact email: >>> [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >>> In the past, I sent my request to multiple email addresses >>> in hopes that someone would respond. That technique worked >>> in 2013! >>> >>> On 4/1/2018 2:59 PM, Nathália G. wrote: >>>> Dear Alice, >>>> >>>> that`s great news! >>>> Would you mind telling us which e-mail? >>>> >>>> Thank you :) >>>> Nath >>>> >>>> 2018-04-01 16:48 GMT-03:00 Alice Gentry <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>: >>>> >>>> I was successful in 2013 in getting the Catholic birth >>>> records from the Romanian archives of my grandmother >>>> born in Jimbolia/Hatzfeld in 1885 by sending an email >>>> with relevant info.  Once they located the record, I >>>> paid the tax ($19.95 in 2013) via an electronic bank >>>> transfer and received a "certified" copy in the mail. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 4/1/2018 12:12 PM, Susan Dekom via >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES wrote: >>>> >>>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>>> >>>> .  The authorities there >>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth >>>> certificates at the civil >>>> records in Arad. >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. >>>> <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> .  The authorities there >>>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth >>>> certificates at the civil >>>> records in Arad. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >

I wrote to secretariat. We shall see. Th website isn't quite friendly. Ill keep trying. Thank you!! Susan > On Apr 1, 2018, at 1:51 PM, Alice Gentry <[email protected]> wrote: > > I went back and looked at my trail of emails. I started with an email to [email protected] and then received a respond from [email protected] > > The response email from dan.pura gave me specific instructions on how to proceed. > > So, I would recommend sending a email to the generic contact for the county in which your village is located. > >> On 4/1/2018 3:44 PM, Alice Gentry wrote: >> I started with the appropriate (for my request, Timis) country records portion of the website http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/directii-judetene/timis/. >> >> The person that I corresponded with 2013 was: [email protected] >> >> But, I am sure that has changed in the last 5 years. >> >> But, the documents contained some general email addresses: >> >> >> There is a new (since 2013) general website relative to the archives and genealogical research with this contact email: >> [email protected] >> >> In the past, I sent my request to multiple email addresses in hopes that someone would respond. That technique worked in 2013! >> >>> On 4/1/2018 2:59 PM, Nathália G. wrote: >>> Dear Alice, >>> >>> that`s great news! >>> Would you mind telling us which e-mail? >>> >>> Thank you :) >>> Nath >>> >>> 2018-04-01 16:48 GMT-03:00 Alice Gentry <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>: >>> >>> I was successful in 2013 in getting the Catholic birth records >>> from the Romanian archives of my grandmother born in >>> Jimbolia/Hatzfeld in 1885 by sending an email with relevant >>> info. Once they located the record, I paid the tax ($19.95 in >>> 2013) via an electronic bank transfer and received a "certified" >>> copy in the mail. >>> >>> >>> On 4/1/2018 12:12 PM, Susan Dekom via DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES wrote: >>> >>> Can we ask for records in writing? >>> >>> . The authorities there >>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth certificates >>> at the civil >>> records in Arad. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Nathália G. >>> <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> . The authorities there >>> told me I could obtain grandparents’ birth >>> certificates at the civil >>> records in Arad. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > >