Hi Joe, Eve, Barb, and DVHH listers, Thank you so much for sharing your diverse experiences, viewpoints, and opinions here. I too love this site for the many reasons already stated. These open and frank discussions about our shared heritage and diversity can only serve to enrich us all. Please keep sharing and the resulting dialogue open and free. Linda On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Eve <evebrown@gmail.com> wrote: > Amen Barb - Thank goodness for freedom of speech! > > Eve > > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Barb D <bbd2424@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Joe, > > I guess this is for everyone everywhere. > > I am so SORRY, that people who were in camps everywhere for one reason or > > another feel or felt ashamed. All of you detainees should be PROUD! This > > was > > thru no fault of your own and happened to many people no matter what > their > > ethnic background was or their race or whatever the reasons were. I > SALUTE > > all of you, be PROUD THAT YOU SURVIVED!!! and SORRY for those who did > not, > > cause that is who you are. It does not matter what your heritage is or > was, > > embrace it . This is what makes the world what it is, like it or not! No > > one > > no matter who they are or where they came from deserve what so many had > to > > endure. My family was very lucky to escape the terrible ordeal that so > > many > > did not. The only one that I know about is my great Aunt ANNA > > LEIMETTER(don't know married name) from Deustch Saint Michael. She was > sent > > some where and we don't know where. She was also a survivor (Thank God). > > This why I love this site. People can say what they feel to be right and > > the > > rest of us need to respect and LEARN from what has been said, not take > > offense. I appreciate all the different opinions and stories and have > > learned so much that I would have never known about my ancestors and > > heritage. My grandparents with my mom came to the U.S. in 1922 so they > only > > knew what was going on from news & letters. As I have said before I don't > > remember( and neither does my mom) there being very much talk about the > old > > country, She doesn't remember anything, she was 3 when she came. > > So I guess what I am saying is be PROUD and not ashamed you are not the > > ones > > who did this to so many. THEY ARE THE ONE'S TO BE ASHAMED!!! > > So for my sake and all the others who have join this list, everyone keep > > the > > stories and info coming. > > Barb D > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joseph Psotka > > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:19 AM > > To: dvhh > > Subject: Re: [DVHH]Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > > > > My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > > family; > > > > but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa > > (my > > mother and I) > > > > or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us > > interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we > never > > wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we > > could. > > > > > > > > > > The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we > > wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > > started with strangers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Diane Halas > > Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > > To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > > Cc: dvhh > > > > > > > > > > > > I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She > said. > > "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > > herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher > > who > > in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > > Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified > their > > primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > > and > > her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > > before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > > about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > > > > Diane > > > > Diane Halas > > 239-592-9969 > > > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This is only in regard to a statement within your discussion regarding the Templars.    You stated that even before Columbus sailed.to the New World that "Gothic" structures or churches existed in Canada and the US that were built by the Templars.   I am completely unaware of this part of history, and would like to read more about their locations if you would list some reference material. Thank you for indulging my curiosity. Norma Ward Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

Can anyone assist Chris Carr below? Thanks, Jody From: DVHH Feedback [mailto:contact_request@dvhh.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:23 PM To: dvhh.community@comcast.net Subject: teinger family The following feedback was sent by Chris Carr (ccarryoder@yahoo.com) via the www.dvhh.org Contact page: I'm related to the Tirenger family we only spell it differently in the USA. My family came here before WW1. My family is pre world war 1 danubeswabain. My great grandmother was born in Bukin in 1881. you can contact me at ccarryoder@yahoo.com I been looking for other family members. I think my mother was the last of the Tiringers.

Amen Barb - Thank goodness for freedom of speech! Eve On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Barb D <bbd2424@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Joe, > I guess this is for everyone everywhere. > I am so SORRY, that people who were in camps everywhere for one reason or > another feel or felt ashamed. All of you detainees should be PROUD! This > was > thru no fault of your own and happened to many people no matter what their > ethnic background was or their race or whatever the reasons were. I SALUTE > all of you, be PROUD THAT YOU SURVIVED!!! and SORRY for those who did not, > cause that is who you are. It does not matter what your heritage is or was, > embrace it . This is what makes the world what it is, like it or not! No > one > no matter who they are or where they came from deserve what so many had to > endure. My family was very lucky to escape the terrible ordeal that so > many > did not. The only one that I know about is my great Aunt ANNA > LEIMETTER(don't know married name) from Deustch Saint Michael. She was sent > some where and we don't know where. She was also a survivor (Thank God). > This why I love this site. People can say what they feel to be right and > the > rest of us need to respect and LEARN from what has been said, not take > offense. I appreciate all the different opinions and stories and have > learned so much that I would have never known about my ancestors and > heritage. My grandparents with my mom came to the U.S. in 1922 so they only > knew what was going on from news & letters. As I have said before I don't > remember( and neither does my mom) there being very much talk about the old > country, She doesn't remember anything, she was 3 when she came. > So I guess what I am saying is be PROUD and not ashamed you are not the > ones > who did this to so many. THEY ARE THE ONE'S TO BE ASHAMED!!! > So for my sake and all the others who have join this list, everyone keep > the > stories and info coming. > Barb D > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:19 AM > To: dvhh > Subject: Re: [DVHH]Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > family; > > but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa > (my > mother and I) > > or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us > interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never > wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we > could. > > > > > The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we > wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > started with strangers. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > Joe > > > > > > From: Diane Halas > Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > Cc: dvhh > > > > > > I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. > "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher > who > in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their > primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > and > her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > > Diane > > Diane Halas > 239-592-9969 > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

Well said! Steve Berwanger Sent from my iPad > On May 3, 2014, at 4:47 PM, "Barb D" <bbd2424@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Joe, > I guess this is for everyone everywhere. > I am so SORRY, that people who were in camps everywhere for one reason or > another feel or felt ashamed. All of you detainees should be PROUD! This was > thru no fault of your own and happened to many people no matter what their > ethnic background was or their race or whatever the reasons were. I SALUTE > all of you, be PROUD THAT YOU SURVIVED!!! and SORRY for those who did not, > cause that is who you are. It does not matter what your heritage is or was, > embrace it . This is what makes the world what it is, like it or not! No one > no matter who they are or where they came from deserve what so many had to > endure. My family was very lucky to escape the terrible ordeal that so many > did not. The only one that I know about is my great Aunt ANNA > LEIMETTER(don't know married name) from Deustch Saint Michael. She was sent > some where and we don't know where. She was also a survivor (Thank God). > This why I love this site. People can say what they feel to be right and the > rest of us need to respect and LEARN from what has been said, not take > offense. I appreciate all the different opinions and stories and have > learned so much that I would have never known about my ancestors and > heritage. My grandparents with my mom came to the U.S. in 1922 so they only > knew what was going on from news & letters. As I have said before I don't > remember( and neither does my mom) there being very much talk about the old > country, She doesn't remember anything, she was 3 when she came. > So I guess what I am saying is be PROUD and not ashamed you are not the ones > who did this to so many. THEY ARE THE ONE'S TO BE ASHAMED!!! > So for my sake and all the others who have join this list, everyone keep the > stories and info coming. > Barb D > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:19 AM > To: dvhh > Subject: Re: [DVHH]Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > family; > > but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa (my > mother and I) > > or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us > interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never > wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we > could. > > > > > The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we > wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > started with strangers. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > Joe > > > > > > From: Diane Halas > Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > Cc: dvhh > > > > > > I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. > "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher who > in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their > primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine and > her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > > Diane > > Diane Halas > 239-592-9969 > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Listers There is a lot of truth what is said here for one reason or the other. It is quite understandable our people lost their homes because of a war they did not want. They have been tested since their days in their old homes by wars and injustices. The receives the brunt of the hatred and blame for siding with the Germans although it was not quite what some of the history tells us. Our people immigrated to Hungary, they would be occupied by Serbia and Romania after WWI. Again they were in many ways punished for just being from areas of what became Germany. They also were punished after WWII for loving their piece.   They would not be able to write about their experiences when they arrived in the USA because they could not speak. According to our standards today they were under educated, however they were the most productive farmers and skilled craftsmen. Despite of the educational shortcomings the largest percentage of out people had, we had enough highly educated scholars like Prof. Georg Wildmann who wrote everything that is to write about; according to Hans Supritz, one of the most  active Donauschwaben to whom we owe the many monuments in the death cams, such as Rudolfgnad, Gakowa and Mitrowitze. At our 50th observation of our expulsion from our homes there was only one book about our history in the English language; "In the fangs of the red dragon". Because of this I did take on myself to write a book about our history. After making countless phone call and writing letters, I decided to travel to Europe and collect material to actually write a book. But one trip was not enough and made tree trips. I took on the task translating information's from some 30 book, naturally condensed. Finally in 2003 after 9 years of work I was ready to self publish the book; "The last generation, forgotten and left to die". ISBN No: 0-9701 109-0-1. For our children to read. I also translated several manuscripts, one of which is" A People On the Danube" by Nenad Stefanovic, published in 2007 published by the University of North Dakota. Without ISBN number. Gruss Hans      On Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:49 PM, Barb D <bbd2424@gmail.com> wrote: Hi Joe, I guess this is for everyone everywhere. I am so SORRY, that people who were in camps everywhere for one reason or another feel or felt ashamed. All of you detainees should be PROUD! This was thru no fault of your own and happened to many people no matter what their ethnic background was or their race or whatever the reasons were. I SALUTE all of you, be PROUD THAT YOU SURVIVED!!! and SORRY for those who did not, cause that is who you are. It does not matter what your heritage is or was, embrace it . This is what makes the world what it is, like it or not! No one no matter who they are or where they came from deserve what so many had to endure. My family was very lucky to escape the terrible ordeal  that so many did not. The only one that I know about is my great Aunt ANNA LEIMETTER(don't know married name) from Deustch Saint Michael. She was sent some where and we don't know where. She was also a survivor (Thank God). This why I love this site. People can say what they feel to be right and the rest of us need to respect and LEARN from what has been said, not take offense. I appreciate all the different opinions and stories and have learned so much that I would have never known about my ancestors and heritage. My grandparents with my mom came to the U.S. in 1922 so they only knew what was going on from news & letters. As I have said before I don't remember( and neither does my mom) there being very much talk about the old country, She doesn't remember anything, she was 3 when she came. So I guess what I am saying is be PROUD and not ashamed you are not the ones who did this to so many. THEY ARE THE ONE'S TO BE ASHAMED!!! So for my sake and all the others who have join this list, everyone keep the stories and info coming. Barb D -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Psotka Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:19 AM To: dvhh Subject: Re: [DVHH]Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the family; but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa (my mother and I) or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father).  For those of us interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we could. The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get started with strangers. Best regards, Joe From: Diane Halas Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' Cc: dvhh I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German.  She said. "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then."  I asked her what she considered herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian".  I told my fifth grade teacher who in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine and her grandmother was pure French.  The family had emigrated to the Banat before there was a "Germany".  There you have it.  I never even learned about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. Diane Diane Halas 239-592-9969 in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Joe, I guess this is for everyone everywhere. I am so SORRY, that people who were in camps everywhere for one reason or another feel or felt ashamed. All of you detainees should be PROUD! This was thru no fault of your own and happened to many people no matter what their ethnic background was or their race or whatever the reasons were. I SALUTE all of you, be PROUD THAT YOU SURVIVED!!! and SORRY for those who did not, cause that is who you are. It does not matter what your heritage is or was, embrace it . This is what makes the world what it is, like it or not! No one no matter who they are or where they came from deserve what so many had to endure. My family was very lucky to escape the terrible ordeal that so many did not. The only one that I know about is my great Aunt ANNA LEIMETTER(don't know married name) from Deustch Saint Michael. She was sent some where and we don't know where. She was also a survivor (Thank God). This why I love this site. People can say what they feel to be right and the rest of us need to respect and LEARN from what has been said, not take offense. I appreciate all the different opinions and stories and have learned so much that I would have never known about my ancestors and heritage. My grandparents with my mom came to the U.S. in 1922 so they only knew what was going on from news & letters. As I have said before I don't remember( and neither does my mom) there being very much talk about the old country, She doesn't remember anything, she was 3 when she came. So I guess what I am saying is be PROUD and not ashamed you are not the ones who did this to so many. THEY ARE THE ONE'S TO BE ASHAMED!!! So for my sake and all the others who have join this list, everyone keep the stories and info coming. Barb D -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Psotka Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:19 AM To: dvhh Subject: Re: [DVHH]Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the family; but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa (my mother and I) or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we could. The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get started with strangers. Best regards, Joe From: Diane Halas Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' Cc: dvhh I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher who in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine and her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. Diane Diane Halas 239-592-9969 in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Nick! Wow, My apologies Nick! You have completely misunderstood my messages. I was not, am not "discussing" race. I was differentiating between DNA as a race definition in specifically determined analysis, and Nationality/and/or Citizenship which is geographic and historical and has nothing to do with genes. Anything I have said is NOT about "saving anyone from being German"! Why would I malign myself? As we say here, I are One. :) I apologize again if I try your patience or the "regular readers of this List" by posting on this list. That is certainly not my intention. I am just "Discussing". No one need agree with me, find any validity in what I have to say, or even read me. I thought dialogue was the point here. Your history is completely accurate and I am aware of it, as far as it goes. So I guess that begs the question....Are you telling me that I am not part of this community called Donauschwaben? Are you and the "well-established facts" telling me I do not belong on this list or in this community if I don't fit all of your list of "facts"? I would suggest we all find a way to include here because if there are those who object to inquiry and discovery on DVHH then it isn't where I will spend my time going forward, which I guess would be a good thing from your perspective Nick. 1. In the "well-established" history of the specific 3 waves of Settlers, the answer to #1. is Yes. 2. I do not doubt that wherever you are your neighbors and other nationalities use the word Swabian as part of their language over time. Where I am, and certainly evidenced by this list, very few immigrants to Canada, the US and other places mentioned, were aware of, or considered themselves "Swabians". I have volumes of letters from my Grandmother's siblings and not one time in any letter is the word Swabian used, mentioned or referred to. That is antidotal, but based on the List chatter I would say it is not unique! It seems to me it would be interesting to do some study of that phenomenon for this List. And also, not mentioning it does not mean by me that it is something to be ashamed of. None of that is the point here, and no one is trying to malign anyone else. We are just asking WHY?? 3. Two answers....1. is Yes! 2. The dialects arrived in the Banat, and then they were enhanced and changed again by influences in the Villages from the new environment of people and from intermarriage and integration. 4. Okay, in the towns and villages that were majority DS.....they then were majority German speaking of whatever dialect they used. How about the towns and villages where the DS were not majority, color coded vividly by the DVHH map? Several branches of my family lived in one village and worked in another, lived in villages that were majority Serb, and converted from Catholicism to Lutherans for about 20 years in order to conduct business with Serbs, Croats and Russians in their vicinity as it worked out better for business? And they intermarried. But they considered themselves "Banaters" through and through. 5. Yes.....so isn't that what I described....what am I missing? 6. "Well-established" facts are universal, but your number 6 is not that. In your "opinion" what you state in number 6 is so. I for one would disagree with your opinion on that. Inside each of those homes where mixed families occurred, all the influences of the mixing was indeed passed on to the children of that mixture and the next generation were in fact "different" from the previous. That my friend is well-established Sociology. Perhaps in your village or town outside of those homes you or others were not aware of changes. From a scholarly perspective traditions were sacrosanct, but from a sociologic perspective everything was in upheaval going into the 20th century and change was the order of the day. The participants on this List evidence the change, not the constant traditional you describe. I expected all you describe to be so when I got into this. But as I researched and discovered and then began to really read this List, I began to realize that of course there is no purism. Everything and everyone are always nuanced. And considering the history of the region, frankly it is a wonder any traditions were saved. I salute you Nick and everyone else living through all that to actually come out the other end in one piece. Hope I haven't bored you again. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship My Dupont gggMother from Triebswetter, whose ancestors came from what is today the Belgian province of Luxembourg, will rejoice in heaven, now that she was saved from being German J I participated in this discussion because it was about nationality (today also called ethnicity) versus citizenship. It can be a confusing topic for many readers of this list, because of the many countries that our ancestors lived in, often without moving from their homestead. It can be particularly confusing for those residing in countries where nationality and citizenship mean one and the same thing. I was surprised to see "race" mentioned in a contribution, as I thought that the topic was mercifully buried in the 1940s, and DVHH publishing guidelines seriously discourage or decline to publish material dealing with it. I doubt that many readers of this list are interested in race, even if DNA analysis is involved. With excuses to the regular readers of this list, let me repeat, hopefully for the last time, a few well established facts: 1. It is a well established fact that only a small number came from Swabia, but it is equally well known that German-speakers constituted by far the largest majority of settlers. This fact does in no way diminish the contribution of the settlers speaking other languages. 2. The DS were and are called Swabians (sváb, şvabi, svaba) by their neighbours of other nationalities and over time the name became part of the language(s). The designation "Donauschwaben" came out of academia only around 1922, and was not in general use in the towns and villages inhabited by DS. 3. The village dialects did not just happen, but resulted from a natural mixture of the dialects brought by the settlers from their places of origin. 4. These dialects were German dialects simply because German-speaking settlers and their offspring constituted the majority population in the towns and villages inhabited by DS. The DS used the literary German language as the common language especially for written communication. I can affirm from personal experience that speakers of literary German (Hochdeutsch) could very well understand most Schwowische dialects. 5. The dialects spoken in the Banat villages incorporated a number of loan words from the languages of the surrounding nationalities. And a number of German loan words became part of the languages spoken by the other nationalities. This is normal and happened in all multinational states. 6. There certainly were mixed marriages, but because of different religions and other factors, their number was not large enough to change either the dialect or the validity of the designation as Swabians. I wish that we could respect the decisions made by our ancestors, and by the still-living Danube Swabians all over the world, to be what they were, or what they are. I see no point in invoking either race or DNA to retroactively reassign their nationality. In recent news, the "Swabian migrations" were named as "the most successful settlement action of eighteenth century Europe". Of that all DS descendants can be justifiably proud. Best wishes to all, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: 3-May-14 02:10 To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

As a Shwobe with many Serbian/Croat and Slovak and Hungarian ancestors who was interned in Gakowa for 3 years with all the other Shwovish residents of Kernei/Krnjaja/Kjaljicevo/ I greatly appreciate this well expressed affirmation of diversity in our community. Sent from Windows Mail From: Barb D Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎May‎ ‎3‎, ‎2014 ‎10‎:‎15‎ ‎AM To: islandkaren, donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net GREAT JOB KAREN! I really enjoyed your description of Donauschwaben's. People have been entwining since the beginning of time, that’s how we all became who we are,so I agree that we should not be to surprised with the results of our DNA. I am looking forward to finding out what mine will come out. Thanks, Barb D. -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 1:09 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what had gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my parents about things that were said and they would just make this gesture - like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. Eve On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > > My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > family; > > but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa > (my mother and I) > > or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us > interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never > wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we > could. > > > > > The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we > wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > started with strangers. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > Joe > > > > > > From: Diane Halas > Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > Cc: dvhh > > > > > > I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. > "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher > who > in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their > primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > and > her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > > Diane > > Diane Halas > 239-592-9969 > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the family; but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa (my mother and I) or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we could. The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get started with strangers. Best regards, Joe From: Diane Halas Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' Cc: dvhh I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher who in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine and her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. Diane Diane Halas 239-592-9969 in the subject and the body of the message

I have to work on being more concise....:):) Thank you John. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Schambre To: islandkaren Cc: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians Thank you Karen. I think you are right on point and I had also come to this same conclusion. And thank you Daniel Hilaire - Karen did indeed 'save' all of our ancestors who came from the Duchy of Lorraine :-) I will keep this explanation to share with my relatives who are quite confused about "being German, Hungarian, Romanian, etc." I think the main point is, they all shared a common life in the same land and now there is a group who celebrate their heritage as one. John San Francisco, CA On May 2, 2014, at 11:09 PM, islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> wrote: To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Gary! And proud you most certainly should be!! I completely agree with you! Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Banzhaf" <gerbanz@gmail.com> To: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> Cc: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > > > Dear islandkaren! > > Seldom I post. I , as an immigrant, do not have the higher schooling to > portray it so well as you in the present "ethnic German" issue. I was > stamped ethnic German, labeled "ex enemy' but I'm proud to be a Schwabe > and will stay a Schwabe. This DNA - perhaps you go back to the > "Neandertaler." > A "Affe" (Monkey) is an Affe and a Mensch is a Mensch - we are all Human ! > You can go on, Search, Search, but I am proud to be Ethnic German - > Schwabe - documented ! > > Yours truly > Gary Gerhard Banzhaf > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net> > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 2:09 AM > Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > > >> To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I >> just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in >> particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they >> thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. >> >> Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a >> Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term >> about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on >> the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who >> did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a >> part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are >> also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the >> geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors >> lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for >> centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became >> "Donauschwaben". >> >> To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy >> that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice >> or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were >> not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people >> who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia >> were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there >> from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. >> Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic >> groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are >> generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages >> in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. >> Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion >> describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who >> spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! >> and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was >> French.......and on and on. >> >> Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and >> you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you >> were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and >> then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist >> sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my >> father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries >> emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban >> territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald >> speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of >> specific groups...nope. >> Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on >> specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and >> never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. >> Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most >> certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of >> the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. >> >> I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also >> occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most >> recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much >> longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually >> even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. >> And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, >> mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that >> is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this >> list. >> >> Karen. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Hans! Of course that is a good synopsis of the umbrella history of migrating tribes across Asia, Europe and the Indian Peninsula. Interesting new "school of thought" in current scholarly circles is that anthropologic evidence is beginning to reveal a new twist on identity of the "Goths"....the most recent migratory tribes who were generally considered to be Germanic. Rather than completely distinct in their identity, it is now believed they may have actually been sub-groups of the Celts. It is my understanding of the history that no one including Attila the Hun was as scary as the Celts!! :):) Also, the Suevi (Suebi/Schwab) actually continued well past central Europe and established two very distinct colonization's just below the Pyrenees in what evolved into the Moor territories, and their descendents are still there. There also was a large population of Jewish Suevi in Spain who were in fact kicked out by Isabella of Spain in the early 1500s and landed in the Banat! There is now lots of evidence that Columbus was actually looking for a new Jewish homeland....not gold for Spain or the Asian continent. He was completely aware the world was round and had maps drawn by his great uncle about 100 years before his journey. There are several "Gothic" churches in the northeast states and Canada built by the Templars years before Columbus arrived. But I digress! Sorry. :):) >From an historical perspective I find it such a tragic paradox that the Germanic Tribes and their mixed kin are generally credited with having possibly the single most civilizing influence of any migrating group to overtake Europe, and yet thanks to one lunatic in the 20th century are also considered to have perpetrated the most horrific recent history event in modern time. Quickly and then I am done....I just want to say how envious I am of you and Nick and lots of other first hand scholarly voices on this List who are bilingual or multilingual. And also how much respect I have for your first hand viewpoints and information. For myself I can't say "thank you" often enough. You have certainly enriched my genealogy journey and also filled-in gaps, broken brick walls, and provided untold amounts of information from which we all have learned. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barb D" <bbd2424@gmail.com> To: "Hans Kopp" <hanskopp.anni@yahoo.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > Nice job! > Barb D > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hans Kopp > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 7:29 AM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net > Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > > Hi Karen-Lister > > I suppose every one can understand what you are writing in your article > Karen. > > Lets start from the beginning and go back 10,000 years ago because that is > the time northern European history began right after the ice age. > > Every one in the north came from the south, from variety of different > cultures. Therefore our ancestors included a variety of different cultures > reflected in our DNA. > > Fast forward to the Roman Empire. There were two Roman provinces Germania > Inferior (from where the Franken nation originated) and Germania Superior > (from where the Alemannic nation originated) with Trier the center. Both > provinces had several cultures intermixed, such as Germanic, Celtic and > the > Romans with a multitude of cultures themselves. > > When Germania Superior becomes Alemannia (about 200AD) after several > Germanic nations joined from the interior of the Germanic land, one of > them > were the Suebi so called by the Romans. (From Suebi or Schweben as the > Germans called them we get the name Schwaben approx. in the year 1,000 > taking place of Alamania). > > Then came the Huns (about 400AD) and defeated the Germanic Burgundy near > Trier (after their defeat they moved to settle in what is today's Burgundy > and established their kingdom there). > > I reality if we go through our history of recent 2,000 years it becomes > even > more evident as we can see and appreciate. > > Now to the German speaking Donauschwaben. Most of them originate from the > west of the Rheine River parts of the former Franken and Alamania. > > Donauschwaben are considered those 100,000 Germans settlers who settled in > Hungary after the Turkish war during the three Great Schwabian Migrations. > > However, many do include other German settlers during other time periods. > I am not to argue if that is right or wrong to do. > > We can say though we are not a race, whoever it does not mean that we do > not > belong to a German speaking nationality group and were considered by > Germany > when our name was coined, as the Youngest Germanic Folksgroup. > > Gruss > Hans > > On Saturday, May 3, 2014 2:32 AM, Daniel HILAIRE > <danielhilaire@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > Thank you Karen!You just saved all people from Duchy of Lorraine to be > german ???? > Daniel, Bordeaux > > >> From: islandkaren@bellsouth.net >> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net >> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 02:09:48 -0400 >> Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians >> >> To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I >> just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in >> particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they >> thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. >> >> Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a >> Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term >> about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on >> the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who >> did >> not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a >> part >> of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also >> "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the >> geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors >> lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for >> centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became >> "Donauschwaben". >> >> To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy >> that >> one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or >> common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not >> German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who >> may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia >> were >> not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from >> every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of >> course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic >> groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are >> generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages >> in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. >> Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion >> describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who >> spoke High German, > who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! >> and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was >> French.......and on and on. >> >> Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and >> you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you >> were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and >> then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist >> sense, >> but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's >> maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the >> geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did >> they >> all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of >> German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. >> Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on >> specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and >> never >> intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. >> Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most >> certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of >> the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. >> >> I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also >> occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most >> recent >> 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer >> context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even >> farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as >> I >> just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, >> included >> and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the >> reality and history of these families....just read this list. >> >> Karen. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My Dupont gggMother from Triebswetter, whose ancestors came from what is today the Belgian province of Luxembourg, will rejoice in heaven, now that she was saved from being German J I participated in this discussion because it was about nationality (today also called ethnicity) versus citizenship. It can be a confusing topic for many readers of this list, because of the many countries that our ancestors lived in, often without moving from their homestead. It can be particularly confusing for those residing in countries where nationality and citizenship mean one and the same thing. I was surprised to see "race" mentioned in a contribution, as I thought that the topic was mercifully buried in the 1940s, and DVHH publishing guidelines seriously discourage or decline to publish material dealing with it. I doubt that many readers of this list are interested in race, even if DNA analysis is involved. With excuses to the regular readers of this list, let me repeat, hopefully for the last time, a few well established facts: 1. It is a well established fact that only a small number came from Swabia, but it is equally well known that German-speakers constituted by far the largest majority of settlers. This fact does in no way diminish the contribution of the settlers speaking other languages. 2. The DS were and are called Swabians (sváb, şvabi, svaba) by their neighbours of other nationalities and over time the name became part of the language(s). The designation "Donauschwaben" came out of academia only around 1922, and was not in general use in the towns and villages inhabited by DS. 3. The village dialects did not just happen, but resulted from a natural mixture of the dialects brought by the settlers from their places of origin. 4. These dialects were German dialects simply because German-speaking settlers and their offspring constituted the majority population in the towns and villages inhabited by DS. The DS used the literary German language as the common language especially for written communication. I can affirm from personal experience that speakers of literary German (Hochdeutsch) could very well understand most Schwowische dialects. 5. The dialects spoken in the Banat villages incorporated a number of loan words from the languages of the surrounding nationalities. And a number of German loan words became part of the languages spoken by the other nationalities. This is normal and happened in all multinational states. 6. There certainly were mixed marriages, but because of different religions and other factors, their number was not large enough to change either the dialect or the validity of the designation as Swabians. I wish that we could respect the decisions made by our ancestors, and by the still-living Danube Swabians all over the world, to be what they were, or what they are. I see no point in invoking either race or DNA to retroactively reassign their nationality. In recent news, the "Swabian migrations" were named as "the most successful settlement action of eighteenth century Europe". Of that all DS descendants can be justifiably proud. Best wishes to all, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: 3-May-14 02:10 To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear islandkaren! Seldom I post. I , as an immigrant, do not have the higher schooling to portray it so well as you in the present "ethnic German" issue. I was stamped ethnic German, labeled "ex enemy' but I'm proud to be a Schwabe and will stay a Schwabe. This DNA - perhaps you go back to the "Neandertaler." A "Affe" (Monkey) is an Affe and a Mensch is a Mensch - we are all Human ! You can go on, Search, Search, but I am proud to be Ethnic German - Schwabe - documented ! Yours truly Gary Gerhard Banzhaf ----- Original Message ----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 2:09 AM Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I > just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in > particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they > thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. > > Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a > Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term > about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on > the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did > not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part > of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also > "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the > geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors > lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for > centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became > "Donauschwaben". > > To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that > one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or > common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not > German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who > may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were > not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from > every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of > course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic > groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are > generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages > in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. > Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion > describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who > spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! > and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was > French.......and on and on. > > Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and > you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you > were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and > then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, > but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's > maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the > geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they > all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of > German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. > Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on > specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never > intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. > Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most > certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of > the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. > > I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also > occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent > 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer > context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even > farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I > just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included > and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the > reality and history of these families....just read this list. > > Karen. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandra, There are a couple of KATZLER and NEIDENBACH names in the Grabatz book, but none of the other names you mention. Diana -----Original Message----- From: Sandra Bruns Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 11:00 PM To: DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] GRABATZ LOOK UP Is there a book for GRABT? I am looking for the following names their KORI, KOHRI, KORY, KHORI KATZLER< JOSEPHA NEIDENBACH PUFFERT Thank you in advance to anyone who may be able to look up the above names -- Sandra ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Karen. I think you are right on point and I had also come to this same conclusion. And thank you Daniel Hilaire - Karen did indeed 'save' all of our ancestors who came from the Duchy of Lorraine :-) I will keep this explanation to share with my relatives who are quite confused about "being German, Hungarian, Romanian, etc." I think the main point is, they all shared a common life in the same land and now there is a group who celebrate their heritage as one. John San Francisco, CA On May 2, 2014, at 11:09 PM, islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> wrote: > To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. > > Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". > > To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! > and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. > > Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. > Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. > Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. > > I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. > > Karen. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nice job! Barb D -----Original Message----- From: Hans Kopp Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 7:29 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians Hi Karen-Lister I suppose every one can understand what you are writing in your article Karen. Lets start from the beginning and go back 10,000 years ago because that is the time northern European history began right after the ice age. Every one in the north came from the south, from variety of different cultures. Therefore our ancestors included a variety of different cultures reflected in our DNA. Fast forward to the Roman Empire. There were two Roman provinces Germania Inferior (from where the Franken nation originated) and Germania Superior (from where the Alemannic nation originated) with Trier the center. Both provinces had several cultures intermixed, such as Germanic, Celtic and the Romans with a multitude of cultures themselves. When Germania Superior becomes Alemannia (about 200AD) after several Germanic nations joined from the interior of the Germanic land, one of them were the Suebi so called by the Romans. (From Suebi or Schweben as the Germans called them we get the name Schwaben approx. in the year 1,000 taking place of Alamania). Then came the Huns (about 400AD) and defeated the Germanic Burgundy near Trier (after their defeat they moved to settle in what is today's Burgundy and established their kingdom there). I reality if we go through our history of recent 2,000 years it becomes even more evident as we can see and appreciate. Now to the German speaking Donauschwaben. Most of them originate from the west of the Rheine River parts of the former Franken and Alamania. Donauschwaben are considered those 100,000 Germans settlers who settled in Hungary after the Turkish war during the three Great Schwabian Migrations. However, many do include other German settlers during other time periods. I am not to argue if that is right or wrong to do. We can say though we are not a race, whoever it does not mean that we do not belong to a German speaking nationality group and were considered by Germany when our name was coined, as the Youngest Germanic Folksgroup. Gruss Hans On Saturday, May 3, 2014 2:32 AM, Daniel HILAIRE <danielhilaire@hotmail.com> wrote: Thank you Karen!You just saved all people from Duchy of Lorraine to be german ???? Daniel, Bordeaux > From: islandkaren@bellsouth.net > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net > Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 02:09:48 -0400 > Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians > > To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I > just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in > particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they > thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. > > Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a > Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term > about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on > the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did > not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part > of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also > "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the > geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors > lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for > centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became > "Donauschwaben". > > To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that > one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or > common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not > German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who > may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were > not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from > every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of > course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic > groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are > generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages > in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. > Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion > describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who > spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! > and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was > French.......and on and on. > > Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and > you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you > were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and > then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, > but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's > maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the > geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they > all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of > German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. > Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on > specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never > intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. > Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most > certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of > the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. > > I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also > occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent > 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer > context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even > farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I > just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included > and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the > reality and history of these families....just read this list. > > Karen. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

GREAT JOB KAREN! I really enjoyed your description of Donauschwaben's. People have been entwining since the beginning of time, that’s how we all became who we are,so I agree that we should not be to surprised with the results of our DNA. I am looking forward to finding out what mine will come out. Thanks, Barb D. -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 1:09 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message