Hi Rita, You wrote " But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor." Do you really believe this? In all the years I've been involved in DS research and circles I've been in, I've never heard the term "Reich Deutsch" in reference to the ethnicity of the Donauschwaben. The Reich was not in existence during the settler days (1700's). Even if you simply meant it as an example, and I can only speak for the DVHH and DS Club members I know, our Danube Swabian heritage is the purpose we gather and try to keep their memory alive. Closer to home, my own main ancestral line (surname INGRISCH) actually came to Banat while in the military and I'm not sure if he came by boat, wagon or horse. He was born and raised to adulthood in Rojau, Bohemia. His mother tongue was German (I also have the Catholic church records from the early 1700's, in German). He married a DS woman in Banat and so forth, here I am. Even though he was ethnic German (mother tongue=German), I am a Donauschwaben descendant because he married a German Banat settler (mother tongue=German) who traveled down the Danube --- where the term originated from. We all should keep in mind there is so much more to our DS ancestors then the language they spoke, and for that I am honored to wear that badge. Thank you for your perspective Rita. Jody -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita Schiwanowitsch Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:10 PM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Nick... I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." Thank you for listening to me, RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > From: ntullius@rogers.com > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > Citizenship > > Hi Rita, > > I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not > consider special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The > Austro-Hungarian Empire comprised many nationalities and most people > never carried a passport, not even those travelling to America. > But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they > generally got along with each other. As you say, those with > interethnic marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously > had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality > of the majority in many parts of the Empire. > Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke > German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about > the nationality of the Danube Swabians. > > Best regards, > Nick Tullius > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita > Schiwanowitsch > Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Nick... > I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel > that there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in > mainland Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier > (southern Banat along the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the > villages in this large swath of land, there were many nationalities. > Some were from Germany. But, there was also a fair amount of > Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, Serbians, and even a few > Italians. These are people that wanted to take advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. > The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward > along the Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from > in that region, there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In > that early time, they were still dealing with the occasional > incursions of the Turks. The borders at that time also occasionally > fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual causes of death in early > Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add causalities of war to the > mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group spouses available, > so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of Banat. Many had > numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know this > differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically segregated by design. And, stayed that way. > I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The > Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. > They spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage > is much more "colorful". > RitaColorado and Jabuka > > > > > From: ntullius@rogers.com > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 > > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > Hello Karen! > > > > > > > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to > > discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion > > or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA > > analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube > > Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the > > subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. > > > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also > > called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their > > neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for > > their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal > > experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village > > (96 percent German > > population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in > > contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany > > and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian > > literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and > > newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the > > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and > > rests on a solid foundation, > developed over their 250-year history. > > > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant > > who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself > > both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics > > about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old > > country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that > > until the end of WWII > there were very few. > > > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. > > It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be > > remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as > > some amorphous > multiethnic entity. > > > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now > > living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit > > presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Nick Tullius > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nick, Some do.... I've talked to many that say so. It's an onging problem for me. Somehow, I am less Donauschwaben because of the mixed ethnicity. Did not mean to offend you. Oh, thank you for a wonderful book. Rita > From: ntullius@rogers.com > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 16:31:24 -0400 > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > There must be a mistake here! No Danube Swabian born and living in the Danube-Swabian settlement area would or could ever claim to be a "Reichsdeutscher". A "Reichsdeutscher" is a German citizen of the German Reich. In modern times they were at various times citizens of Hungary, Romania, Serbia/Yugoslavia, but never citizens of the Reich. > Some real Reichsdeutsche did have something like a superiority complex. When our DS men (then called Volksdeutsche) were "volunteered" into the German armed forces (1943) some of them were called insulting names such as Beutedeutscher, meaning "booty German" or "Spoil-of-war German". Many "volunteers" were hugely disappointed. Members of DS families fleeing from the invading Red Army suffered a similar fate when they arrived in the Reich. I know many who returned to (Soviet-occupied) Romania. > Those who read my book (thank you!) are already aware of that. > > Nick Tullius > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jody McKim Pharr > Sent: 4-May-14 15:00 > To: 'Rita Schiwanowitsch'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Rita, > > You wrote " But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor." > > Do you really believe this? > In all the years I've been involved in DS research and circles I've been in, I've never heard the term "Reich Deutsch" in reference to the ethnicity of the Donauschwaben. The Reich was not in existence during the settler days (1700's). > Even if you simply meant it as an example, and I can only speak for the DVHH and DS Club members I know, our Danube Swabian heritage is the purpose we gather and try to keep their memory alive. > > Closer to home, my own main ancestral line (surname INGRISCH) actually came to Banat while in the military and I'm not sure if he came by boat, wagon or horse. He was born and raised to adulthood in Rojau, Bohemia. His mother tongue was German (I also have the Catholic church records from the early 1700's, in German). He married a DS woman in Banat and so forth, here I am. Even though he was ethnic German (mother tongue=German), I am a Donauschwaben descendant because he married a German Banat settler (mother tongue=German) who traveled down the Danube --- where the term originated from. > > We all should keep in mind there is so much more to our DS ancestors then the language they spoke, and for that I am honored to wear that badge. > > Thank you for your perspective Rita. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita Schiwanowitsch > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:10 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Hi Nick... > I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. > My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in > many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. > But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. > Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." > Thank you for listening to me, > RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > > > > From: ntullius@rogers.com > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > > Citizenship > > > > Hi Rita, > > > > I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not > > consider special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The > > Austro-Hungarian Empire comprised many nationalities and most people > > never carried a passport, not even those travelling to America. > > But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they > > generally got along with each other. As you say, those with > > interethnic marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously > > had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality > > of the majority in many parts of the Empire. > > Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke > > German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about > > the nationality of the Danube Swabians. > > > > Best regards, > > Nick Tullius > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita > > Schiwanowitsch > > Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > Hello Nick... > > I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel > > that there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in > > mainland Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier > > (southern Banat along the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the > > villages in this large swath of land, there were many nationalities. > > Some were from Germany. But, there was also a fair amount of > > Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, Serbians, and even a few > > Italians. These are people that wanted to take advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. > > The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward > > along the Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from > > in that region, there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In > > that early time, they were still dealing with the occasional > > incursions of the Turks. The borders at that time also occasionally > > fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual causes of death in early > > Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add causalities of war to the > > mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group spouses available, > > so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of Banat. Many had > > numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know this > > differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically segregated by design. And, stayed that way. > > I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The > > Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. > > They spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage > > is much more "colorful". > > RitaColorado and Jabuka > > > > > > > > > From: ntullius@rogers.com > > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 > > > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > > > Hello Karen! > > > > > > > > > > > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to > > > discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion > > > or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > > > > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA > > > analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube > > > Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the > > > subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. > > > > > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also > > > called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their > > > neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for > > > their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal > > > experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village > > > (96 percent German > > > population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in > > > contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany > > > and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian > > > literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and > > > newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the > > > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and > > > rests on a solid foundation, > > developed over their 250-year history. > > > > > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant > > > who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself > > > both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics > > > about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old > > > country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that > > > until the end of WWII > > there were very few. > > > > > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. > > > It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be > > > remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as > > > some amorphous > > multiethnic entity. > > > > > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now > > > living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit > > > presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Nick Tullius > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > > message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Nick! I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have now met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, Englesbrun, and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, Banaters, Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to understand this fascinating history. It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by the agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on certain definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become universal. It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, and was surprised by what I found. I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton University to have some of my material translated. And for all the "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language Department at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an established history. So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" any definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change the reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all this, is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. I have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has been established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the beginning and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching a vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common law marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village groups were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, and the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing new there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what I have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they left Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to some extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who you seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why did they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but not back to their " Homeland", Germany? Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, had lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no less than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% "German" anymore? Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as hell and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more real and infinitely richer than the definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: 3-May-14 15:42 To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Nick! Wow, My apologies Nick! You have completely misunderstood my messages. I was not, am not "discussing" race. I was differentiating between DNA as a race definition in specifically determined analysis, and Nationality/and/or Citizenship which is geographic and historical and has nothing to do with genes. Anything I have said is NOT about "saving anyone from being German"! Why would I malign myself? As we say here, I are One. :) I apologize again if I try your patience or the "regular readers of this List" by posting on this list. That is certainly not my intention. I am just "Discussing". No one need agree with me, find any validity in what I have to say, or even read me. I thought dialogue was the point here. Your history is completely accurate and I am aware of it, as far as it goes. So I guess that begs the question....Are you telling me that I am not part of this community called Donauschwaben? Are you and the "well-established facts" telling me I do not belong on this list or in this community if I don't fit all of your list of "facts"? I would suggest we all find a way to include here because if there are those who object to inquiry and discovery on DVHH then it isn't where I will spend my time going forward, which I guess would be a good thing from your perspective Nick. 1. In the "well-established" history of the specific 3 waves of Settlers, the answer to #1. is Yes. 2. I do not doubt that wherever you are your neighbors and other nationalities use the word Swabian as part of their language over time. Where I am, and certainly evidenced by this list, very few immigrants to Canada, the US and other places mentioned, were aware of, or considered themselves "Swabians". I have volumes of letters from my Grandmother's siblings and not one time in any letter is the word Swabian used, mentioned or referred to. That is antidotal, but based on the List chatter I would say it is not unique! It seems to me it would be interesting to do some study of that phenomenon for this List. And also, not mentioning it does not mean by me that it is something to be ashamed of. None of that is the point here, and no one is trying to malign anyone else. We are just asking WHY?? 3. Two answers....1. is Yes! 2. The dialects arrived in the Banat, and then they were enhanced and changed again by influences in the Villages from the new environment of people and from intermarriage and integration. 4. Okay, in the towns and villages that were majority DS.....they then were majority German speaking of whatever dialect they used. How about the towns and villages where the DS were not majority, color coded vividly by the DVHH map? Several branches of my family lived in one village and worked in another, lived in villages that were majority Serb, and converted from Catholicism to Lutherans for about 20 years in order to conduct business with Serbs, Croats and Russians in their vicinity as it worked out better for business? And they intermarried. But they considered themselves "Banaters" through and through. 5. Yes.....so isn't that what I described....what am I missing? 6. "Well-established" facts are universal, but your number 6 is not that. In your "opinion" what you state in number 6 is so. I for one would disagree with your opinion on that. Inside each of those homes where mixed families occurred, all the influences of the mixing was indeed passed on to the children of that mixture and the next generation were in fact "different" from the previous. That my friend is well-established Sociology. Perhaps in your village or town outside of those homes you or others were not aware of changes. From a scholarly perspective traditions were sacrosanct, but from a sociologic perspective everything was in upheaval going into the 20th century and change was the order of the day. The participants on this List evidence the change, not the constant traditional you describe. I expected all you describe to be so when I got into this. But as I researched and discovered and then began to really read this List, I began to realize that of course there is no purism. Everything and everyone are always nuanced. And considering the history of the region, frankly it is a wonder any traditions were saved. I salute you Nick and everyone else living through all that to actually come out the other end in one piece. Hope I haven't bored you again. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Peggy, It would be helpful for everyone to remember to change the subject line when they change the subject matter/topic. Remember when starting or changing a "topic' start a new email message, so it's not combined with the previous thread and lost in the Rootsweb archives. Jody -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Chrusciel Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 5:18 PM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] "All" List Hello, I joined this mailing list to learn more about my heritage. What I am seeing on some of these messages is really mind boggling but I'm wondering if there is a better way for these messages to be group for those interested in the subjects being discussed? Anyone know if a way to organize by subject? Then if someone us interested they can get those messages and not have to weed through all of these and the responses to them. Thank you Peggy Chrusciel Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Here is an interview with June Meyer by Rose Mary Keller Hughes in 2004: http://www.dvhh.org/community/interviews/wischler_meyer.htm Jody -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of James Ball Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 12:45 PM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] food Hi, My name is Maria Wagenbach-Ball. My father, John Wagenbach, was from Gyonk and my mother, Maria Kunz, from Hogyesz in Hungary (identified as Swabian Turkey). I highly recommend a cookbook: June Meyer's Authentic Hungarian Heirloom Recipes. These are very authentic Danube Swabian recipes. Maria On Apr 17, 2014, at 11:46 AM, donauschwaben-villages-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > To respond to a Digest Mode message, click reply, CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE TO REFLECT THE TOPIC - then delete any postings/text not specific to the message you are responding to. Otherwise it could cause your message to be too long and not get posted. Your cooperation is appreciated. > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Special food (Lotte Devlin) > 2. Re: Announcement - DVHH Cooking Pages (Lotte Devlin) > 3. Re: Special food (Helga Kiely) > 4. Re: Special food (Helga Kiely) > 5. Re: Announcement - DVHH Cooking Pages (Rose Mary Keller Hughes) > 6. Re: suggestions for DS foods (Hans Kopp) > 7. Re: Special food (Eve) > 8. Re: Special food (Pat Ford) > 9. Re: Special food (Rita Schiwanowitsch) 10. Re: suggestions for > DS foods (Rita Schiwanowitsch) 11. Re: suggestions for DS foods > (monicaellis621@aol.com) 12. Re: suggestions for DS foods (Laszlo > (Les) Josa) 13. Re: Shoop Noodle (Helga Kiely) 14. Fw: Special food > (Helga Kiely) 15. Re: Fw: Special food (Sandra) 16. Re: (no > subject) (Erna) 17. Re: suggestions for DS foods (Jerry Buza) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Frank. I'm about 40% German, 40% Hungarian, and 20% Croatian, Romanian, maybe Czech, and Serbian. Most of Jabuka is some version of that because we are all in one way or another related. What does that mean? 100% Donauschwaben!!! Rita from Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: ffs1@cogeco.ca<mailto:ffs1@cogeco.ca> Sent: ‎5/‎4/‎2014 1:37 PM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com<mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I'm Hessian Frank - Windsor On 5/4/2014 2:10 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Nick... > I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. > My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in > many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. > But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. > Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." > Thank you for listening to me, > RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > > >> From: ntullius@rogers.com >> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >> >> Hi Rita, >> >> I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not consider >> special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The Austro-Hungarian Empire >> comprised many nationalities and most people never carried a passport, not >> even those travelling to America. >> But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they >> generally got along with each other. As you say, those with interethnic >> marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously had chosen the >> German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in >> many parts of the Empire. >> Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke >> German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about the >> nationality of the Danube Swabians. >> >> Best regards, >> Nick Tullius >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita >> Schiwanowitsch >> Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 >> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >> >> Hello Nick... >> I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel that >> there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in mainland >> Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat along >> the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large swath >> of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, there >> was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, >> Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to take >> advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. >> The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along the >> Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that region, >> there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, they >> were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The borders >> at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual >> causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add >> causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group >> spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of >> Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know >> this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically >> segregated by design. And, stayed that way. >> I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The >> Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. They >> spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much more >> "colorful". >> RitaColorado and Jabuka >> >> >> >>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 >>> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>> >>> Hello Karen! >>> >>> >>> >>> You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to >>> discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or >>> to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. >>> >>> It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA >>> analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube >>> Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the >>> subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. >>> >>> But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called >>> Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring >>> nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own >>> self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based >>> on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German >>> population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact >>> with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and >>> Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, >>> from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I >>> can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic >>> German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, >> developed over their 250-year history. >>> In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who >>> was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a >>> Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the >>> number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my >>> experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII >> there were very few. >>> The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It >>> seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered >>> as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous >> multiethnic entity. >>> Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now >>> living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous >>> for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Nick Tullius >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>> message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I fully agree with Nick . . . "Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history." Who among us could disagree with that. Nick (who is one of the DVHH Senior Editors) wrote "The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity." This is absolutely true and the basis of the DVHH mission. Nick is a very factual person and for the sake of the DVHH publications, it has been to our favor. Karen, if you have DS blood running through your veins - you belong on this list. You wrote: " You have completely misunderstood my messages " This is easy to do in emails and postings. Happens to me all the time, but don't let it disdain you from continued participation. We're not in the business of running folks off, the DVHH would not be where it is today, if that were the case. I believe history is in the making, even as we speak/post. We must be mindful of those reading our postings, new researchers could be very impressionable and therefore it's helpful to follow the below mail list guidelines that were updated early 2013 which includes "Cite Sources Rule: for Historical Events & Data": 1: Accuracy is important and sources are vital. We insist that messages regarding historical events or data be supported by solid references. If your statements (or information) are speculation, then label them as such. Ancestor lists are worthless if the information is wrong. When providing lookup information, please provide the book information: title, author, and date. If your information comes from a website, provide the title of the page, author and the URL address. Web addresses change, so this information is as necessary as it would be for a book. 2: The above new "Citing Sources Rule" is being implemented to thwart the posting of erroneous historical information which, usually and rightfully so, generates a correction response. Often the original poster is offended and wants to start an open or private debate, see flaming below as to how this is to be handled. http://www.dvhh.org/community/mail-list.htm Nobody can say that there were NO mixed ethnic marriages among the DS. Personally there were none in my family until immigrating to the US. I've heard "Native-Tongue" mentioned. My Grandmother spoke German, her "Mother Tongue" - NOT "Native Tongue" - big difference. I can also appreciate this not-boring discussion; and certainly welcome any comments of personal experience, hopefully based on facts and not assumptions. (Not saying that you did that Karen) Therefore, this topic may very well call for a study including polling researchers on the mixed ethnic marriages among their Danube Swabian roots, to include dates, what ethnic groups; what villages and in what regions. This would certainly present factual evidence for your position, of which I would personally support your endeavor if you so choose to do this. I know nothing about the DNA research, so I cannot comment on it at all, except to say, I know of NO ONE who has literally connected with a live cousin whereby they can trace the connection to each other in records. It would be cool to know if any lister has been successful in that. Best Regards, Jody McKim Pharr DVHH Publisher -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nick Tullius Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: 3-May-14 15:42 To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Nick! Wow, My apologies Nick! You have completely misunderstood my messages. I was not, am not "discussing" race. I was differentiating between DNA as a race definition in specifically determined analysis, and Nationality/and/or Citizenship which is geographic and historical and has nothing to do with genes. Anything I have said is NOT about "saving anyone from being German"! Why would I malign myself? As we say here, I are One. :) I apologize again if I try your patience or the "regular readers of this List" by posting on this list. That is certainly not my intention. I am just "Discussing". No one need agree with me, find any validity in what I have to say, or even read me. I thought dialogue was the point here. Your history is completely accurate and I am aware of it, as far as it goes. So I guess that begs the question....Are you telling me that I am not part of this community called Donauschwaben? Are you and the "well-established facts" telling me I do not belong on this list or in this community if I don't fit all of your list of "facts"? I would suggest we all find a way to include here because if there are those who object to inquiry and discovery on DVHH then it isn't where I will spend my time going forward, which I guess would be a good thing from your perspective Nick. 1. In the "well-established" history of the specific 3 waves of Settlers, the answer to #1. is Yes. 2. I do not doubt that wherever you are your neighbors and other nationalities use the word Swabian as part of their language over time. Where I am, and certainly evidenced by this list, very few immigrants to Canada, the US and other places mentioned, were aware of, or considered themselves "Swabians". I have volumes of letters from my Grandmother's siblings and not one time in any letter is the word Swabian used, mentioned or referred to. That is antidotal, but based on the List chatter I would say it is not unique! It seems to me it would be interesting to do some study of that phenomenon for this List. And also, not mentioning it does not mean by me that it is something to be ashamed of. None of that is the point here, and no one is trying to malign anyone else. We are just asking WHY?? 3. Two answers....1. is Yes! 2. The dialects arrived in the Banat, and then they were enhanced and changed again by influences in the Villages from the new environment of people and from intermarriage and integration. 4. Okay, in the towns and villages that were majority DS.....they then were majority German speaking of whatever dialect they used. How about the towns and villages where the DS were not majority, color coded vividly by the DVHH map? Several branches of my family lived in one village and worked in another, lived in villages that were majority Serb, and converted from Catholicism to Lutherans for about 20 years in order to conduct business with Serbs, Croats and Russians in their vicinity as it worked out better for business? And they intermarried. But they considered themselves "Banaters" through and through. 5. Yes.....so isn't that what I described....what am I missing? 6. "Well-established" facts are universal, but your number 6 is not that. In your "opinion" what you state in number 6 is so. I for one would disagree with your opinion on that. Inside each of those homes where mixed families occurred, all the influences of the mixing was indeed passed on to the children of that mixture and the next generation were in fact "different" from the previous. That my friend is well-established Sociology. Perhaps in your village or town outside of those homes you or others were not aware of changes. From a scholarly perspective traditions were sacrosanct, but from a sociologic perspective everything was in upheaval going into the 20th century and change was the order of the day. The participants on this List evidence the change, not the constant traditional you describe. I expected all you describe to be so when I got into this. But as I researched and discovered and then began to really read this List, I began to realize that of course there is no purism. Everything and everyone are always nuanced. And considering the history of the region, frankly it is a wonder any traditions were saved. I salute you Nick and everyone else living through all that to actually come out the other end in one piece. Hope I haven't bored you again. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Karen, Me thinks that history has been a well-established science long before anybody ever heard about sociology. I agree that history is often not quite accurate, especially when the victors write it (a 20th century specialty?). But as a science, it is not always "very small and very subjective". If it does not pursue and present the truth, it is not a science and is useless. Just one example (in English) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historikerstreit I do not know what you mean by "Hungarian Empire". Was there ever such an entity? And who "wanted more peace, freedom to practice their chosen religion, some chance at wealth and prosperity", certainly not the Hungarian nobility. Those had an abundance of it all, while cruelly suppressing their own peasants and trying to assimilate the non-Magyars. I largely agree with your assessment of the knowledge of history and disrespect for nationality of many Americans. From my experience, I would certainly exclude the elite universities from this assessment. Cheers, Nick -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: 4-May-14 13:01 To: Fran Matkovich; Eve Cc: dvhh Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish Hello Fran! I do not disagree with you, however, I would like to clarify, without offending anyone. Not only don't Americans know German history, very few people "know" history. But your reference is more to Sociology than History. Most people "know" their own particular "environment" and the people in it. That's what I mean by Sociology. "History" for most is very small and very subjective. Which is also why sometimes being more particular is useful. Politics and Power are usually what people are referring to in describing events, Sociology is the day to day in an environment, and "History" is often determined years later and with no guidelines for personal experience and always determined by the individual "writer". In Academia it is the reason groups of scholars "write" what is called "History" and not generally one individual. In any case, sorry I'm so long. Americans spend a great deal of time being pompous and over-bearing based on some notion that we have the truth and the light. The reality is clear from our "history". We are just as political, just a interested in power, just as misguided on many occasions, and on the wrong side of things often. And like most cultures in history, at some point someone lights a candle in the dark and something good happens. We do not have a monopoly on the light. I would say this, despite our penchant for persecution like many other cultures, the US and Canada and Australia are probably now in history what the Hungarian Empire once was for western Europeans who wanted more peace, freedom to practice their chosen religion, some chance at wealth and prosperity, and an environment they felt they could control in order to thrive. For whatever reason they migrated East, it is pretty safe to say it wasn't because they "liked to travel". To your point specifically I would suggest from my own experience that Americans do not differentiate at all regarding the identity of other Nationalities. If you say you are French then you must be from France. If you say you are "ethnic German" all most hear is "German" and it is assumed you are from Germany. I would agree that persecution is precisely the reason that the DS "history" is such an untold story. And I agree completely that the DVHH is a gold mine of history and information. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fran Matkovich" <mjm1021@comcast.net> To: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com> Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > It is important to realize that Americans did not and still do not know > about German history. They identified the Germans in Germany, who had to > follow Hitler's orders to kill, and the Donauschwaben in Hungary as the > same people. They did not realize that the Donauschwaben were not a part > of Hitler's regime at the time. So when a Donauschwaben came to the US, > they automatically labelled them as Nazis. Most people today do not know > their world history and know very little about World War II. My mother was > born here but was the daughter of a Banat resident. She had only a grade > school education and knew very little about her heritage. She could only > tell me that her family was German-Hungarian and that Hitler was evil, but > she couldn't explain what that meant. I went back and studied world > history to get the story. you can now find a lot of that history on > www.dvhh.org . > > > > Fran Matkovich > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com> > To: "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> > Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23:20 PM > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too > complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived > notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my > parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told > them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many > of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what > had > gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my > parents about things that were said and they would just make this > gesture - > like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in > particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since > he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but > mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. > > Eve > > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > >> >> My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the >> family; >> >> but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa >> (my mother and I) >> >> or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us >> interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we >> never >> wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we >> could. >> >> >> >> >> The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we >> wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get >> started with strangers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> Joe >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Diane Halas >> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM >> To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' >> Cc: dvhh >> >> >> >> >> >> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. >> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered >> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher >> who >> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in >> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified >> their >> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine >> and >> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat >> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned >> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. >> >> Diane >> >> Diane Halas >> 239-592-9969 >> >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > -- > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It is important to realize that Americans did not and still do not know about German history.  They identified  the Germans in Germany, who had to follow Hitler's orders to kill,  and the Donauschwaben in Hungary as the same people.  They did not realize that the Donauschwaben were not a part of Hitler's regime at the time.  So when a Donauschwaben came to the US, they automatically labelled them as  Nazis.  Most people today do not know their world history and know very little about World War II.  My mother was born here but was the daughter of a Banat resident.  She had only a grade school education and knew very little about her heritage.  She could only tell me that her family was German-Hungarian and that Hitler was evil,  but she couldn't explain what that meant.  I went back and studied world history to get the story.  you can now find a lot of that history on www.dvhh.org . Fran Matkovich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com> To: "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23:20 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too complicated to understand and explain.  Most people here had preconceived notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what had gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my parents about things that were said and they would just make this gesture - like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust.  I don't think my mom in particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. Eve On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > > My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > family; > > but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa > (my mother and I) > > or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father).  For those of us > interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never > wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we > could. > > > > > The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we > wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > started with strangers. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > Joe > > > > > > From: Diane Halas > Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > Cc: dvhh > > > > > > I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German.  She said. > "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then."  I asked her what she considered > herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian".  I told my fifth grade teacher > who > in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their > primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > and > her grandmother was pure French.  The family had emigrated to the Banat > before there was a "Germany".  There you have it.  I never even learned > about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > > Diane > > Diane Halas > 239-592-9969 > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Rita, I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not consider special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The Austro-Hungarian Empire comprised many nationalities and most people never carried a passport, not even those travelling to America. But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they generally got along with each other. As you say, those with interethnic marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in many parts of the Empire. Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about the nationality of the Danube Swabians. Best regards, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita Schiwanowitsch Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Nick... I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel that there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in mainland Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat along the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large swath of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, there was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to take advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along the Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that region, there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, they were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The borders at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically segregated by design. And, stayed that way. I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. They spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much more "colorful". RitaColorado and Jabuka > From: ntullius@rogers.com > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Karen! > > > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to > discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or > to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA > analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube > Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the > subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based > on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German > population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact > with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and > Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, > from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I > can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic > German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who > was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a > Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the > number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my > experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It > seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered > as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now > living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous > for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > > > Cheers, > > Nick Tullius > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Fran! I do not disagree with you, however, I would like to clarify, without offending anyone. Not only don't Americans know German history, very few people "know" history. But your reference is more to Sociology than History. Most people "know" their own particular "environment" and the people in it. That's what I mean by Sociology. "History" for most is very small and very subjective. Which is also why sometimes being more particular is useful. Politics and Power are usually what people are referring to in describing events, Sociology is the day to day in an environment, and "History" is often determined years later and with no guidelines for personal experience and always determined by the individual "writer". In Academia it is the reason groups of scholars "write" what is called "History" and not generally one individual. In any case, sorry I'm so long. Americans spend a great deal of time being pompous and over-bearing based on some notion that we have the truth and the light. The reality is clear from our "history". We are just as political, just a interested in power, just as misguided on many occasions, and on the wrong side of things often. And like most cultures in history, at some point someone lights a candle in the dark and something good happens. We do not have a monopoly on the light. I would say this, despite our penchant for persecution like many other cultures, the US and Canada and Australia are probably now in history what the Hungarian Empire once was for western Europeans who wanted more peace, freedom to practice their chosen religion, some chance at wealth and prosperity, and an environment they felt they could control in order to thrive. For whatever reason they migrated East, it is pretty safe to say it wasn't because they "liked to travel". To your point specifically I would suggest from my own experience that Americans do not differentiate at all regarding the identity of other Nationalities. If you say you are French then you must be from France. If you say you are "ethnic German" all most hear is "German" and it is assumed you are from Germany. I would agree that persecution is precisely the reason that the DS "history" is such an untold story. And I agree completely that the DVHH is a gold mine of history and information. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fran Matkovich" <mjm1021@comcast.net> To: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com> Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > It is important to realize that Americans did not and still do not know > about German history. They identified the Germans in Germany, who had to > follow Hitler's orders to kill, and the Donauschwaben in Hungary as the > same people. They did not realize that the Donauschwaben were not a part > of Hitler's regime at the time. So when a Donauschwaben came to the US, > they automatically labelled them as Nazis. Most people today do not know > their world history and know very little about World War II. My mother was > born here but was the daughter of a Banat resident. She had only a grade > school education and knew very little about her heritage. She could only > tell me that her family was German-Hungarian and that Hitler was evil, but > she couldn't explain what that meant. I went back and studied world > history to get the story. you can now find a lot of that history on > www.dvhh.org . > > > > Fran Matkovich > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com> > To: "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> > Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23:20 PM > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too > complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived > notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my > parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told > them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many > of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what > had > gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my > parents about things that were said and they would just make this > gesture - > like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in > particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since > he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but > mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. > > Eve > > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > >> >> My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the >> family; >> >> but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa >> (my mother and I) >> >> or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us >> interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we >> never >> wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we >> could. >> >> >> >> >> The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we >> wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get >> started with strangers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> Joe >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Diane Halas >> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM >> To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' >> Cc: dvhh >> >> >> >> >> >> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. >> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered >> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher >> who >> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in >> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified >> their >> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine >> and >> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat >> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned >> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. >> >> Diane >> >> Diane Halas >> 239-592-9969 >> >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > -- > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Ralph, The spelling is different in the Bukin book. It is listed as Thieringer. The pronunciation is the same. It is on page 1252 number 6492. Martin Thieringer’s second marriage in 1903 to Eva Rein born 23. 12.1881. The dates match with Chris’ grandmother. I have scanned the pages of Martin Thieringer and of Eva Rein’s parents and grandparents and emailed them to Chris. Anne D.

Hi Nick... I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." Thank you for listening to me, RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > From: ntullius@rogers.com > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Rita, > > I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not consider > special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The Austro-Hungarian Empire > comprised many nationalities and most people never carried a passport, not > even those travelling to America. > But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they > generally got along with each other. As you say, those with interethnic > marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously had chosen the > German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in > many parts of the Empire. > Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke > German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about the > nationality of the Danube Swabians. > > Best regards, > Nick Tullius > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita > Schiwanowitsch > Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Nick... > I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel that > there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in mainland > Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat along > the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large swath > of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, there > was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, > Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to take > advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. > The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along the > Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that region, > there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, they > were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The borders > at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual > causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add > causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group > spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of > Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know > this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically > segregated by design. And, stayed that way. > I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The > Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. They > spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much more > "colorful". > RitaColorado and Jabuka > > > > > From: ntullius@rogers.com > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 > > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > Hello Karen! > > > > > > > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to > > discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or > > to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA > > analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube > > Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the > > subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. > > > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based > > on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German > > population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact > > with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and > > Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, > > from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I > > can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic > > German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, > developed over their 250-year history. > > > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who > > was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a > > Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the > > number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my > > experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII > there were very few. > > > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It > > seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered > > as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous > multiethnic entity. > > > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now > > living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous > > for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Nick Tullius > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ahhh...So much for my research skills! I did look at all of the 'T' entries, but obviously not close enough. Not thinking far enough out of the box. Thanks for pointing this out. Ralph On 5/4/2014 11:31 AM, Anne Dreer wrote: > Hello Ralph, > The spelling is different in the Bukin book. It is listed as Thieringer. The pronunciation is the same. It is on page 1252 number 6492. > Martin Thieringer’s second marriage in 1903 to Eva Rein born 23. 12.1881. The dates match with Chris’ grandmother. > I have scanned the pages of Martin Thieringer and of Eva Rein’s parents and grandparents and emailed them to Chris. > Anne D. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have looked in the Bukin OSB and have found no names close to the spellings in Chris' message. Even accounting for transpositions there is nothing close. Chris, are you sure it was Bukin? Ralph Haus On 5/3/2014 10:06 PM, DVHH Webmaster wrote: > Can anyone assist Chris Carr below? > > Thanks, > > Jody > > > > From: DVHH Feedback [mailto:contact_request@dvhh.org] > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:23 PM > To: dvhh.community@comcast.net > Subject: teinger family > > > > The following feedback was sent by Chris Carr (ccarryoder@yahoo.com) via the > www.dvhh.org Contact page: > > I'm related to the Tirenger family we only spell it differently in the USA. > My family came here before WW1. My family is pre world war 1 danubeswabain. > My great grandmother was born in Bukin in 1881. you can contact me at > ccarryoder@yahoo.com I been looking for other family members. I think my > mother was the last of the Tiringers. > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Gaby, I missed your original posting, so don't know if more details were given there. On my family tree, I have one HERMANN, first name Margaret, b. 1900, Szepfalu, Temes, Hungary; married my grand uncle, Michael KELLER, from Glogowatz, Arad. Margaret had a brother, Michael, b. 1890. Their parents were: Michael Hermann b. 1866, Szepfalu, d. 1955 New York and Margaret Hilcser b. 1868, Szepfalu, d. 1939 New York. They were Catholic and immigrated to Buffalo, New York, 1910. Given all the recent discussion on this site about what exactly it means to be Donauschwaben from the Banat, I have learned that the answer is often rather complicated!! The discussions have resulted in my thinking more "outside the box" or in this case brick wall, in my genealogy research. I honestly have to admit that my initial reaction upon reading your question was to think, well... I don't have any ancestors from Yugoslavia and so... just archive the posting and move on. (I'm more than a little behind in reading the volume of recent postings, but do want to read all.) Still... I have learned something here through all the discussions! In the back of my mind, there was this lingering doubt and I kept asking myself, "what have you learned here?" In conclusion, I couldn't say with absolute certainty that none of my ancestors came from Yugoslavia!! As several listers have pointed out to me and other newbies, it's certainly possible that our German speaking ancestors originated from somewhere outside Germany!! Hope the above information on my Hermann line is helpful. And if not, hopefully someone else on this list can help you find the missing link(s) to your grandparents. Good luck in your search! Linda On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Gaby Curtis-Hayward <gabyh@adam.com.au>wrote: > Hi again > > I was wondering if anyone has received my request and can help me. > > MY Mother, GISELLA HERMANN, born Torda Yugoslavia 1921, Religion CATHOLIC. > BORN TO STEFAN HERMAN, MOTHER UNKNOWN > > MY Father, KARL Or (KAROLY) SOTI, born Devavanya Hungary 1920, Religion > PROTESTANT. > > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Gaby > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I'm sorry I missed most of this  thread. I've been down with something. I will read back, as this is interesting to me. My grandfather identified the family as Hungarian nationality and German race on his papers coming in. My family said they were German, and they'd kind of correct that to "actually Austrian". In the 1980s, they mostly went to Germany as far as I can tell. I regret losing track of anyone, and I am grateful to have been found by one person through this list. He is in Austria. But my grandfather said he kept the Hungarian spelling of the last name and he identified as Hungarian to some extent because of discrimination in the USA, even back in the 20s. He was wary that he might have trouble getting a job as a German person. He was not anti-Hungarian in any way but he was adamant that he was really German. My grandfather was fluent in Hungarian, and I never understood why. They didn't tell me much of anything, and I didn't ask questions because I had no questions to ask really. I did think it odd that my family were Germans yet not from Germany. I just thought the sun rose and set in my grandfather's eyes, and that he could do anything. Wow, he could even find water underground with a stick! I recall once he traveled about an hour's drive often to help translate for a Hungarian family who had immigrated to Florida. He appreciated the chance to keep up with his Hungarian speaking ability, and they felt like he was someone from home. I guess he felt they were from home too.  Susan M. On Saturday, May 3, 2014 12:57 PM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the family; but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa (my mother and I) or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father).  For those of us interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we could. The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get started with strangers. Best regards, Joe From: Diane Halas Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' Cc: dvhh I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German.  She said. "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then."  I asked her what she considered herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian".  I told my fifth grade teacher who in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine and her grandmother was pure French.  The family had emigrated to the Banat before there was a "Germany".  There you have it.  I never even learned about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. Diane Diane Halas 239-592-9969 in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I fully agree with Fran. I would like to add that the DS history is often missing from history books, or it is presented in a seriously distorted fashion. To properly remember our ancestors, DVHH has a duty to present the missing DS view. I am absolutely certain that it can do that, while strictly respecting the truth. Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fran Matkovich Sent: 4-May-14 09:20 To: Eve Cc: dvhh Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish It is important to realize that Americans did not and still do not know about German history. They identified the Germans in Germany, who had to follow Hitler's orders to kill, and the Donauschwaben in Hungary as the same people. They did not realize that the Donauschwaben were not a part of Hitler's regime at the time. So when a Donauschwaben came to the US, they automatically labelled them as Nazis. Most people today do not know their world history and know very little about World War II. My mother was born here but was the daughter of a Banat resident. She had only a grade school education and knew very little about her heritage. She could only tell me that her family was German-Hungarian and that Hitler was evil, but she couldn't explain what that meant. I went back and studied world history to get the story. you can now find a lot of that history on www.dvhh.org . Fran Matkovich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com> To: "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23:20 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what had gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my parents about things that were said and they would just make this gesture - like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. Eve On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > > My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > family; > > but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in > Gakowa (my mother and I) > > or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of > us interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and > we never wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in > whatever way we could. > > > > > The second generation seems to think that this experience is something > we wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to > get started with strangers. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > Joe > > > > > > From: Diane Halas > Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > Cc: dvhh > > > > > > I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. > "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher > who > in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their > primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > and > her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > > Diane > > Diane Halas > 239-592-9969 > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: 3-May-14 15:42 To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Nick! Wow, My apologies Nick! You have completely misunderstood my messages. I was not, am not "discussing" race. I was differentiating between DNA as a race definition in specifically determined analysis, and Nationality/and/or Citizenship which is geographic and historical and has nothing to do with genes. Anything I have said is NOT about "saving anyone from being German"! Why would I malign myself? As we say here, I are One. :) I apologize again if I try your patience or the "regular readers of this List" by posting on this list. That is certainly not my intention. I am just "Discussing". No one need agree with me, find any validity in what I have to say, or even read me. I thought dialogue was the point here. Your history is completely accurate and I am aware of it, as far as it goes. So I guess that begs the question....Are you telling me that I am not part of this community called Donauschwaben? Are you and the "well-established facts" telling me I do not belong on this list or in this community if I don't fit all of your list of "facts"? I would suggest we all find a way to include here because if there are those who object to inquiry and discovery on DVHH then it isn't where I will spend my time going forward, which I guess would be a good thing from your perspective Nick. 1. In the "well-established" history of the specific 3 waves of Settlers, the answer to #1. is Yes. 2. I do not doubt that wherever you are your neighbors and other nationalities use the word Swabian as part of their language over time. Where I am, and certainly evidenced by this list, very few immigrants to Canada, the US and other places mentioned, were aware of, or considered themselves "Swabians". I have volumes of letters from my Grandmother's siblings and not one time in any letter is the word Swabian used, mentioned or referred to. That is antidotal, but based on the List chatter I would say it is not unique! It seems to me it would be interesting to do some study of that phenomenon for this List. And also, not mentioning it does not mean by me that it is something to be ashamed of. None of that is the point here, and no one is trying to malign anyone else. We are just asking WHY?? 3. Two answers....1. is Yes! 2. The dialects arrived in the Banat, and then they were enhanced and changed again by influences in the Villages from the new environment of people and from intermarriage and integration. 4. Okay, in the towns and villages that were majority DS.....they then were majority German speaking of whatever dialect they used. How about the towns and villages where the DS were not majority, color coded vividly by the DVHH map? Several branches of my family lived in one village and worked in another, lived in villages that were majority Serb, and converted from Catholicism to Lutherans for about 20 years in order to conduct business with Serbs, Croats and Russians in their vicinity as it worked out better for business? And they intermarried. But they considered themselves "Banaters" through and through. 5. Yes.....so isn't that what I described....what am I missing? 6. "Well-established" facts are universal, but your number 6 is not that. In your "opinion" what you state in number 6 is so. I for one would disagree with your opinion on that. Inside each of those homes where mixed families occurred, all the influences of the mixing was indeed passed on to the children of that mixture and the next generation were in fact "different" from the previous. That my friend is well-established Sociology. Perhaps in your village or town outside of those homes you or others were not aware of changes. From a scholarly perspective traditions were sacrosanct, but from a sociologic perspective everything was in upheaval going into the 20th century and change was the order of the day. The participants on this List evidence the change, not the constant traditional you describe. I expected all you describe to be so when I got into this. But as I researched and discovered and then began to really read this List, I began to realize that of course there is no purism. Everything and everyone are always nuanced. And considering the history of the region, frankly it is a wonder any traditions were saved. I salute you Nick and everyone else living through all that to actually come out the other end in one piece. Hope I haven't bored you again. Karen.

Hello Nick... I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel that there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in mainland Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat along the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large swath of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, there was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to take advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along the Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that region, there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, they were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The borders at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically segregated by design. And, stayed that way. I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. They spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much more "colorful". RitaColorado and Jabuka > From: ntullius@rogers.com > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Karen! > > > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you > or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own > private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) > leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You > can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the > Latins used to say. > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 > years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and > in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of > Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a > fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, > research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests > on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was > not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and > an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or > proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few > Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems > clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something > other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living > in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one > of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > > > Cheers, > > Nick Tullius > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message