My great-great grandfather had a logging business in Apatin in the early 20th century. Does anyone have an idea if there was, or still exists a business directory of some sort for that time period? I am hoping such a list would have the business owner's name so that I can research that end of my family's heritage. Right now I have a family tree that is just names. All of the brothers ( and one sister) who came to America between 1907-1912 are deceased, with no written records of their time in Apatin. DVHH has come through in a big way, and have researched my family from their roots in Germany. Now I would like to start filling in the blanks. Thanks, Matt Dresner

My grandparents emigrated in 1907 and 1909. During WWII, I've been told that after 20 years in the same neighborhood, their house was egged. Note that they had two sons and two sons-in-law in the U.S. Navy fighting against the Axis. Yes, propaganda runs deep. Linda Bautz McKenna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: "'DVHH'" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians > There is another reason for ethnic Germans in the USA and Canada after WWI > and after WWII to declare themselves to be anything other than German. It > is > that Germans were often hated and sometimes persecuted for being the > enemy. > Many friends, neighbours, and coworkers may have had their men over in > Europe, fighting the Germans. Some of these men may have been killed over > there. In addition, the war propaganda did its best to stir up the hatred > not only of Germany, but of anything in any way German. > There were closings of German newspapers, clubs, schools (or German > classes); the city of Berlin in Ontario was renamed Kitchener. To avoid > any > undue consequences of being seen as the enemy, many ethnic Germans > declared > themselves to be Austrians, Hungarians, Romanians, or citizens of the > other > successor states. The numbers are reflected in the appropriate census > data. > These reactions are understandable: It is normal that nobody wants > to be shunned, disadvantaged, or even persecuted for being "the enemy". > > Nick Tullius > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rezso > Altnetter > Sent: 2-May-14 03:08 > To: DVHH > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians > > > > > Hi Dan, > > I think I can answer your question. > Basically the Austrian-Hungarian Empire had (as the name say) Austria and > Hungary as the rulers and the other regions like Bohemia (now Czech Rep) > or > Transylvania (now Romania) for example were under either Austria or > Hungary. > The Batschka was part of the Hungarian portion so they were after all > Hungarian citizens. > > If you check this map it's easier to understand: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dissolution_of_Austria-Hungary.png > There you have what was under Austria and Hungary and then the division of > the territories after the WWI when the all Empire colapsed. > > My ancestors were also German-Hungarians from Vezsprem (now Hungary). > And in few documents they declared themselves Hungarians and in others > Austrians, but the same as your ancestors, they kept their German culture. > > I hope it helps :) > > Regards, > Roger Altnetter > > From: ajwdcw@windstream.net >> To: Donauschwaben-Villages@rootsweb.com >> Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 20:40:15 -0400 >> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians >> >> So, I have a question. I have ancestry that came to the USA before and >> after WWI and they declared themselves to be Hungarian, even though >> they were of German heritage. Before the war their town, in the >> Batschka, was part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. After the war they >> were part of Yugoslavia. So why did they see themselves as being >> Hungarian, as opposed to Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslavian? >> Dan Walter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of >> Steve Berwanger >> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 1:27 PM >> To: <mjm1021@comcast.net> >> Cc: donauschwaben-villages; Barbara >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] German Hungarians >> >> Thanks........ >> This pretty much describes my memories of our family too! >> >> Steve Berwanger >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On May 1, 2014, at 11:41 AM, <mjm1021@comcast.net> wrote: >> > >> > I never had a problem with my parents' describing themselves as >> German-Hungarians once I went back and studied their history. They >> were Germans who resettled in Hungary but kept their German culture >> mixed with some Hungarian culture. When they came to America they >> shortened it to German Americans. Their culture was still German mixed > with some Hungarian. >> Their descendents became Americans. >> > >> > Fran Matkovich >> > >> > Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Tony Fieder >> > To: Eve, Barbara Hilderson >> > Cc: donauschwaben-villages >> > Sent: April 30, 2014 at 5:08 PM >> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named >> > >> > Is there similar information anywhere for Batschka prisoners??? >> > Didn't find my dad's name (Peter) on the site provide below? >> > >> > Anton Fieder >> > >> > >> >> From: evebrown@gmail.com >> >> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:00:40 -0400 >> >> To: bhilderson@msn.com >> >> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: [DVHH] Replying to posts >> >>> This is true, but it helps to know what the response is in regard >> >>> to if >> >> they at least leave the last post. >> >>> Also helpful is for those with digest mode to use the subject line >> >>> for the >> >> one they are responding to - in fact all digest mail needs to have >> >> the subject lines edited. >> >>> Eve >> >>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Barbara Hilderson >> <bhilderson@msn.com>wrote: >> >>>> To the DVHH members, I've edited Vol.7.Ossie 114 . Please >> >>>> don't >> take >> >>> offense; but it was very difficult to >> >>> read your postings. Perhaps, if when you reply to a message you >> delete >> >>> all other messages before replying >> >>> it would make your reply easier to read. Barb >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The names of people imprisoned at a notorious >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> detention camp on the >> >>>>>> Croatian island of Goli Otok were published online as part of >> >>>>>> an >> >>>>> exhibition >> >>>>>> aimed at exposing Communist crimes. >> >>>>>>> http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/list-of-goli-otok-pris >> >>>>>>> on >> >>>>>>> ers-published-online?utm_source=Balkan+Transitional+Justice+Da >> >>>>>>> il >> >>>>>>> y+Newsletter&utm_campaign=c28b26ea0b-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_me >> >>>>>>> y+di >> >>>>>>> um=email&utm_term=0_561b9a25c3-c28b26ea0b-319678805 >> >>>>>>>>>>>> . >> >>> to Karen, >> >>>>> Thank you for the explanation as to >> >>> "Our Beginnings" >> >>> We should be grateful for those who went before us...... >> >>> And.......my "Great Aunt Annie" was the best cook in the world !!!!! >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Diane: >> >>>>> With all due and grateful respect to everyone, I would hazard a >> >>>>> guess that >> >>> your Grandmother's political consciousness was to some extent >> >>> formed during the short period in the 1800s when there was a "Dual >> >>> Monarchy", and the Austrian aristocracy wanted the land and the >> >>> power, >> but not the "barbarian' >> >>> Hungarians....see the story of Leopold and his suicide. That of >> >>> course is a vast simplification of a very complicated political >> >>> and historical period in history, but it gives you the basics from >> >>> which to begin to understand the geographic and political mess in >> >>> Eastern Europe beginning in the early 1800s and going forward. >> >>>>> I have had a very interesting and informative dialogue going >> >>>>> with Nick >> >>> Tullis who is a first person immigrant and lived through the mess >> >>> real time in the 1900s. He is certainly an eye witness expert on >> >>> this, but I disagree with him that your "native tongue" determines >> >>> your "ethnicity" which then becomes tangled into what your genetic >> >>> makeup reveals and what informs your personal "identity". Your >> >>> story and many others described on this list as well as my own, >> >>> informs this discussion totally. After your description of your >> >>> conversation with your Grandmother, correct me if I am >> >>> wrong...which happens often :).....your Grandmother was referring >> >>> satirically to the fact that in the territories of the Banat, the >> >>> safest and most inclusive identity to have during her lifetime >> >>> there was a political one...."we were all 'Germans' then". >> >>>>> It seems to me all the most recent discussion threads evidence a >> >>>>> real time >> >>> probability that most folks in Eastern Europe during a 200 year or >> >>> more period were in fact a microcosm of like-minded people from >> >>> all over greater Europe and the Indian Peninsula who were seeking >> >>> a peace and prosperity that is universal. They were brave, >> >>> liberty-loving people who had migrated to the vast territories of >> >>> the Hungarian and Russian Empires to be peaceful and productive. >> >>> When you look closely you come to discover that their "ethnicity" >> >>> hailed from a vast number of other areas, and their "citizenship" >> >>> was fragile at best and in constant flux. Just the huge variety >> >>> of different dialects, recipe differences, religious traditions, >> >>> education attitudes, and flat-out languages where sometimes one >> >>> Village group could not understand the language of the Village >> >>> folk right next to them, speaks to that fact and informs it. >> >>>>> None of what I have just said DIMINISHES what anyone then >> >>>>> "thought or >> >>> identified" themselves as, but rather I believe makes the whole >> >>> story far richer and much more interesting! I believe the >> >>> appropriateness of a collective identity called "Donauschwaben" >> >>> does not describe "Germans", but rather a vastly complex and >> >>> exciting grouping of people with the SAMEness of ideal and >> >>> tradition...that is... great food, wonderful and loving "Village" >> >>> identity, the best parts of a "Migration" to something better >> >>> psyche, and a courage and strength that is both unusual >> >>> collectively and magnificent individually. >> >>>>> There was no braver person on this earth than my Grandmother! >> >>>>> And she was >> >>> born a Hungarian, lived as a mixed "German,Serb,Hungarian, >> >>> Russian, Italian, French, Croat", spoke 4 languages and then >> >>> added English, figured out the best of the Eastern European >> >>> ethnicity, was genetically a mixed Caucasian and practiced 3 >> >>> different religious affiliations during her lifetime. >> >>> Then...she became an American. Don't know what you call that, but >> >>> I call it Fabulous!! >> >>>>> Karen. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Forwarded Message Attachment-- >> >>> From: MFCobb1@aol.com >> >>> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> >>> To: bbd2424@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; >> >>> dvhalas@comcast.net; jfschambre@comcast.net; easimcox@gmail.com >> >>> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:40:31 -0400 >> >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results >> >>>>> Barb & Karen, I agree whole heartedly--well done. Karen, >> >>>>> thank you for >> >>> the well-thought-out epistle, and I use the word epistle as in a >> >>> formal and >> >>> elegant letter. This is going into my reference files. Thank you > both >> >>> for >> >>> you time and effort. >> >>>>> Marcia Fay (WAGENHALS) Cobb >> >>> (Formerly of Mansfield, Ohio >> >>> (My father was born in Kanak but emigrated from Franzfeld, >> >>> Austria-Hungary) >> >>> Newberg Oregon >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This discussion seems to never die. I >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put togeher a few points about the >> >>> nationality of the Danube Swabians in an attempt to clarify the >> >>> issue. The long-time followers of this List may want to skip them >> >>>>>>>>> 1. The dictionary definition of nationality: a body of >> >>>>>>>>> people >> sharing >> >>> common descent, history, language, etc; they could form a nation; >> >>> or they can form a national minority. >> >>>>> 2. National minorities were officially recognized by the >> governments of >> >>> the more enlightened multi-national states of Europe (they were >> >>> multinational because of the presence of national minorities). >> >>>>> 3. With the multiple changes of borders and/or sovereignty in >> >>>>> the >> >>> territories inhabited by Danube Swabians, the determination of >> >>> nationality by the country of birth would have been impossible. >> >>> Attempts to change their nationality by force were never >> >>> completely successful. >> >>>>> 4. In new countries being built from immigrants, nationality and >> >>> citizenship (here considered the same) were usually acquired by >> >>> birth or by naturalization. >> >>>>> 5. In older countries, such as Germany, belonging to a people in >> the >> >>> ethnic sense is referred to as nationality (but not necessarily >> >>> citizenship). >> >>>>> 6. Even in today's post-Communist States, citizens are assigned >> >>>>> a >> >>> nationality, which can make them members of a >> >>> officially-recognized national minority. >> >>>>>>>>> That the Danube Swabians are an ethnic German group is a >> >>>>>>>>> well-established >> >>> historical fact. It is determined not only by common descent, >> >>> history, language, but a vast cultural heritage in German-language >> >>> literature, in the arts like painting, sculpture and music. It was >> >>> finally demonstrated by their recent (by historical time) >> >>> immigration to and integration in the country of their ancestors. >> >>> The latter are the vast majority; we in the New World (North >> >>> America, Australia, Brazil, etc) are a small minority, and we are >> >>> free to personally decide who we are and what we are. Our >> >>> ancestors made their own decisions. May they rest in peace! >> >>>>>>>>> Nick Tullius >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' >> >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>>>>>> -- >> >> Syrmia Regional Coordinator >> >> http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia >> >>>> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> >> message >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> > message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> > message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Karen, I just need to respond to one part of your eloquent discussion: "Why is it that all these people who you seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why did they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but not back to their " Homeland", Germany?" It was impossible for my parents to go to Germany from the Austrian DP camp, except by way of France, and then only "black". My father refused to do that. Either the German government or the allied occupation forces determined that the refugees who were housed in Austrian DP camps, most of whom came from the southern areas of Yugoslavia, Romania and Hungary, would be absorbed into the Austrian population, rather than be allowed to emigrate to Germany, because of the millions of eastern European Germans from Poland, Silesia, Pomerania and Sudeten Germans who had to be integrated into what was to become West Germany. You have to remember that most of Germany and Austria were destroyed. We were still living in wooden barracks with dirt floors in 1952 when we immigrated, with no prospect of improvement any time soon. The last barracks in Haid were torn down in the early 60s. So rather than not feeling at home in Germany, the "German" Germans didn't want us, and there was little for them to offer at that time. We had family in the US, so that's why my parents opted for the American dream. I can't even imagine what it must have been like for them to leave, believing they would never see their families again. Anyway, not to be too melodramatic, but people couldn't always do what they wanted, because things were really bad. Many who emigrated earlier in the 20s did so because they came to work in the states for a few years to send money home, and so it was a logical place to go. For those of us who came later, this first wave pretty well served as sponsors for the WWII DPs. Lotte -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: Jody McKim Pharr <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net>; 'Nick Tullius' <ntullius@rogers.com>; donauschwaben-villages <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Jody! Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last sentence. I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick with the black and white definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Karen, Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for everyone. Jody -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Nick! I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have now met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, Englesbrun, and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, Banaters, Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to understand this fascinating history. It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by the agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on certain definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become universal. It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, and was surprised by what I found. I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton University to have some of my material translated. And for all the "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language Department at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an established history. So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" any definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change the reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all this, is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. I have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has been established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the beginning and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching a vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common law marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village groups were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, and the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing new there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what I have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they left Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to some extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who you seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why did they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but not back to their " Homeland", Germany? Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, had lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no less than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% "German" anymore? Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as hell and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more real and infinitely richer than the definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On the other hand I am proud not to be a German or a Danube Swabian. Donauschwab is an imperialistic term coined by Germans in the 30s after Germany lost their African colonies and sought new colonies in eastern Europe among ethnic Germans. I am a Shwobe and I speak Shwovish among other languages. This continues a beautiful shwovish tradition. -----Original Message----- From: "Rita Schiwanowitsch" <schiwanore@msn.com> Sent: ‎5/‎4/‎2014 4:46 PM To: "donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Nick, Some do.... I've talked to many that say so. It's an onging problem for me. Somehow, I am less Donauschwaben because of the mixed ethnicity. Did not mean to offend you. Oh, thank you for a wonderful book. Rita > From: ntullius@rogers.com > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 16:31:24 -0400 > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > There must be a mistake here! No Danube Swabian born and living in the Danube-Swabian settlement area would or could ever claim to be a "Reichsdeutscher". A "Reichsdeutscher" is a German citizen of the German Reich. In modern times they were at various times citizens of Hungary, Romania, Serbia/Yugoslavia, but never citizens of the Reich. > Some real Reichsdeutsche did have something like a superiority complex. When our DS men (then called Volksdeutsche) were "volunteered" into the German armed forces (1943) some of them were called insulting names such as Beutedeutscher, meaning "booty German" or "Spoil-of-war German". Many "volunteers" were hugely disappointed. Members of DS families fleeing from the invading Red Army suffered a similar fate when they arrived in the Reich. I know many who returned to (Soviet-occupied) Romania. > Those who read my book (thank you!) are already aware of that. > > Nick Tullius > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jody McKim Pharr > Sent: 4-May-14 15:00 > To: 'Rita Schiwanowitsch'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Rita, > > You wrote " But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor." > > Do you really believe this? > In all the years I've been involved in DS research and circles I've been in, I've never heard the term "Reich Deutsch" in reference to the ethnicity of the Donauschwaben. The Reich was not in existence during the settler days (1700's). > Even if you simply meant it as an example, and I can only speak for the DVHH and DS Club members I know, our Danube Swabian heritage is the purpose we gather and try to keep their memory alive. > > Closer to home, my own main ancestral line (surname INGRISCH) actually came to Banat while in the military and I'm not sure if he came by boat, wagon or horse. He was born and raised to adulthood in Rojau, Bohemia. His mother tongue was German (I also have the Catholic church records from the early 1700's, in German). He married a DS woman in Banat and so forth, here I am. Even though he was ethnic German (mother tongue=German), I am a Donauschwaben descendant because he married a German Banat settler (mother tongue=German) who traveled down the Danube --- where the term originated from. > > We all should keep in mind there is so much more to our DS ancestors then the language they spoke, and for that I am honored to wear that badge. > > Thank you for your perspective Rita. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita Schiwanowitsch > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:10 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Hi Nick... > I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. > My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in > many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. > But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. > Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." > Thank you for listening to me, > RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > > > > From: ntullius@rogers.com > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > > Citizenship > > > > Hi Rita, > > > > I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not > > consider special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The > > Austro-Hungarian Empire comprised many nationalities and most people > > never carried a passport, not even those travelling to America. > > But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they > > generally got along with each other. As you say, those with > > interethnic marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously > > had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality > > of the majority in many parts of the Empire. > > Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke > > German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about > > the nationality of the Danube Swabians. > > > > Best regards, > > Nick Tullius > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita > > Schiwanowitsch > > Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > Hello Nick... > > I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel > > that there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in > > mainland Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier > > (southern Banat along the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the > > villages in this large swath of land, there were many nationalities. > > Some were from Germany. But, there was also a fair amount of > > Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, Serbians, and even a few > > Italians. These are people that wanted to take advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. > > The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward > > along the Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from > > in that region, there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In > > that early time, they were still dealing with the occasional > > incursions of the Turks. The borders at that time also occasionally > > fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual causes of death in early > > Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add causalities of war to the > > mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group spouses available, > > so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of Banat. Many had > > numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know this > > differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically segregated by design. And, stayed that way. > > I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The > > Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. > > They spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage > > is much more "colorful". > > RitaColorado and Jabuka > > > > > > > > > From: ntullius@rogers.com > > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 > > > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > > > Hello Karen! > > > > > > > > > > > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to > > > discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion > > > or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > > > > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA > > > analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube > > > Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the > > > subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. > > > > > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also > > > called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their > > > neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for > > > their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal > > > experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village > > > (96 percent German > > > population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in > > > contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany > > > and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian > > > literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and > > > newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the > > > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and > > > rests on a solid foundation, > > developed over their 250-year history. > > > > > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant > > > who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself > > > both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics > > > about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old > > > country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that > > > until the end of WWII > > there were very few. > > > > > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. > > > It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be > > > remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as > > > some amorphous > > multiethnic entity. > > > > > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now > > > living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit > > > presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Nick Tullius > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > > message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm a first generation immigrant, having been born in a DP camp in Austria. My parents were from Banat. When we came to this country, we spoke German at home, and I continued to speak German with my parents until they died several years ago. There was a very active German-American community in Philadelphia, composed of "Reichsdeutsche," and various "Volksdeutsche" groups, including Donauschwaben. There were lots of German clubs (some of which, including the Donauschwaben, that still exist today). I have to say that my identification was primarily with the German culture, regardless of the form. We belonged to a German singing school from the time I was 3 until I graduated from High School. My father started and I was a student and teacher at a weekend German language school, at which German-Americans from many areas of origin were welcomed. In his later years, my father became more active in the Donauschwaben club, but also continued his work with the Kinderchor, Jugendchor and language school. My father was recognized as a friend of the Federal Republic of Germany back in the 80s. The purpose of all these activities was to foster German culture, in its many forms. Today, the Donauschwaben Club still exists in Phila, and the "German Hungarians" are welcome at all club events as well. My father always insisted on our speaking German, even though we children were often subjected to being called "Hitler's granddaughter," "Nazi," etc. My parents seldom spoke of their war experiences, but it was more because it was time to get on with life and not look back, I think. My point is that I think that ethnic communities in the "outland" tend to band together to find what is common in their experience. That's perhaps another reason why not as much was made of being Schwovisch as of being ethnic German. But then what the heck do I know? :-) Lotte -----Original Message----- From: Fran Matkovich <mjm1021@comcast.net> To: Eve <evebrown@gmail.com> Cc: dvhh <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 9:22 am Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish It is important to realize that Americans did not and still do not know about German history. They identified the Germans in Germany, who had to follow Hitler's orders to kill, and the Donauschwaben in Hungary as the same people. They did not realize that the Donauschwaben were not a part of Hitler's regime at the time. So when a Donauschwaben came to the US, they automatically labelled them as Nazis. Most people today do not know their world history and know very little about World War II. My mother was born here but was the daughter of a Banat resident. She had only a grade school education and knew very little about her heritage. She could only tell me that her family was German-Hungarian and that Hitler was evil, but she couldn't explain what that meant. I went back and studied world history to get the story. you can now find a lot of that history on www.dvhh.org . Fran Matkovich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com> To: "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23:20 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what had gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my parents about things that were said and they would just make this gesture - like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. Eve On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > > My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > family; > > but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa > (my mother and I) > > or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us > interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never > wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we > could. > > > > > The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we > wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > started with strangers. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > Joe > > > > > > From: Diane Halas > Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > Cc: dvhh > > > > > > I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. > "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher > who > in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified their > primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > and > her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > > Diane > > Diane Halas > 239-592-9969 > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Tina, OK, I’ve got quite a few MICHEL names from my Werbass book: Matthias MICHEL, 12 Oct 1784 and Peter MICHEL, 21 Aug 1784, both from a list of original founders of Alt-Werbass. Jakob MICHEL was listed as an immigrant to Werbass, dying in 1817. Ludwig MICHEL was listed in a field session (I believe that means how much of a tillable plot you were given, or you bought) in 1848. Friedrich MICHEL and Philip MICHEL were listed in an 1869 land registry . The following MICHEL people were listed in a death record from the notorious Jarek death camp run by the Yugoslavian partisans toward the end of WWII and after: Christina, 8 Aug 1945 Katharina, 31 Aug 1945 Jacob, 16 Sep 1945 Friedrich, 3 Oct 1945 Elisabeth, 28 Dec 1945 Don’t know if any of this helps, but it’s all I’ve got right now. You may want to search Ancestry.com and Family Search for more. Others may have different information sources. Dan Walter From: Tina Michel [mailto:tranpro@primus.ca] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 8:54 PM To: Andrea & Dan Walter Subject: Re: Alt-Werbass Family Book Thank you kindly for your precious help. Tina Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrea <mailto:ajwdcw@windstream.net> & Dan Walter To: 'Tina Michel' <mailto:tranpro@primus.ca> Cc: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 8:37 PM Subject: RE: Alt-Werbass Family Book I will look in my book for your names and let you know what I find. This book is more of a history of Werbass as opposed to a family book, but let’s see what I can find. Dan Walter From: Tina Michel [mailto:tranpro@primus.ca] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 1:11 AM To: Andrea & Dan Walter Cc: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Alt-Werbass Family Book Hi Dan, I think if this is a complete history book of Werbass, it should at least give the names of the people that lived there during the said period. I'm looking for a certain MICHEL, Philipp born in 1763 (probably not there), married to Christina Schweich, and having 3 to 4 sons. How can I can a copy of this book, or at least a copy of the pages that would be of interest to me? Thank you for your response. Tina Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrea <mailto:ajwdcw@windstream.net> & Dan Walter To: 'Tina Michel' <mailto:tranpro@primus.ca> Cc: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 8:30 PM Subject: Alt-Werbass Family Book I have just one book that I got from my father titled “Werbass 1785 – 1975”, but nothing on Alt-Werbass. If anyone knows of a family book like this, please let us know. I have heritage from Neu-Werbass and Alt-Werbass. Dan Walter From: Tina Michel [mailto:tranpro@primus.ca] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 11:51 AM To: John Haumann; Andrea & Dan Walter Cc: 'dvhh' Subject: Re: [DVHH] Seeking information on HAUMANN, Ares Hi John and Dan, Any body of you - or some else - happen to know anything about the family book of Werbass, more precisely Alt-Werbass? I'm actually looking to see if any document exists on the list of the inhabitants of this town/village in the late 1700's. My ancestor was supposed to have lived there sometime before 1819 and then he moved to another village. Thank you so much. Tina Michel, Montreal, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Haumann" < <mailto:haumann@earthlink.net> haumann@earthlink.net> To: "Andrea & Dan Walter" < <mailto:ajwdcw@windstream.net> ajwdcw@windstream.net> Cc: "'dvhh'" < <mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 1:25 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Seeking information on HAUMANN, Ares Hello Dan, Thanks for the reply. Do you have any knowledge of an Ares HAUMANN among the descendants? Werbaß is actually just about 40 kM north (and a little east) of Palanka where my father and his six brothers and sisters were born. I am reasonably certain that they remained in Neu Palanka at least through about 1929 or 1930, but most likely remained there until the incursion of Tito's Partisans in the fall of 1944. Aside from my father, I have personal knowledge of the whereabouts of only one of his siblings (a sister and her subsequent family). Incidentally, I have been able (with considerable help from the DVHH community) to trace my HAUMANN line back to Konrad HAUMANN and Elisabeth MANTZ of Filipowa in the late 1700s. John (Hans) Haumann On Apr 30, 2014, at 7:08 PM, Andrea & Dan Walter wrote: > I have a number of Haumann's in my line, but they originate from the > Batschka region, around Werbass. > Dan Walter > > -----Original Message----- > From: <mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com> donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John > Haumann > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:25 AM > To: dvhh > Subject: [DVHH] Seeking information on HAUMANN, Ares > > > I am trying to determine whether HAUMANN, Ares might have been a relative on > my father's side. I have only the sketchiest of information, but I can > share what little I know. > > Ares HAUMANN died sometime in 1999, possibly in Britain, or maybe Spain or > Argentina. That's it. > > If we are related, it would likely be as first cousins (possibly a son of > one of my father's brothers). My father is HAUMANN, Stefan, b-1904 > (Palanka), d-1981 (Cleveland) > > The brothers... > HAUMANN, Johann, b-1894 > HAUMANN, Martin, b-1896 > HAUMANN, Jakob, b-1902 > HAUMANN, Andreas, b-1908 > > Not much to go on. I would appreciate any ideas. > > Thanks, > > John (Hans) Haumann > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > <mailto:DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to <mailto:DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - <http://www.avg.fr> www.avg.fr Version: 2013.0.3469 / Base de données virale: 3722/7423 - Date: 01/05/2014 Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 2013.0.3469 / Base de données virale: 3722/7426 - Date: 01/05/2014 Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 2013.0.3469 / Base de données virale: 3722/7431 - Date: 02/05/2014

Jody, I Have!! Actually on my side of the family and also on my husband's side as he submitted through the National Geographic Project about 10 years ago. I am now in constant conversation with 2 cousins in Canada, an entire family branch...LeBlanc...in France, and one distant cousin who is a citizen of Malta.....during the Libya crisis I got real time information as NATO used Malta as a staging site. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 4:22 PM Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Karen, No, I didn't mean that DNA research is not valuable; - I just don't know anything about it to join in a discussion. But I've been interested in reading the post and can certainly see it playing a role in the future of genealogy, if not already apparently. I just don't "personally" know of anyone on the list who has made an actual connection to a real-time cousin via a DNA sample. The only cousin connections I know of were made via DVHH are here: http://www.dvhh.org/community/connections.htm Jody -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:52 PM To: Jody McKim Pharr; 'Nick Tullius'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; "'mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net'"@mail.rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Jody! Thanks for this. I have so many questions now I don't know where to start. I will start with the last. Are you saying DNA plays no role whatsoever in genealogy, based on "I know nothing about DNA research"?? Please, please tell me I misunderstood you?? In regard to DNA connections with cousins who have found each other, wow, that happens constantly. Start with National Geographic DNA Project or how about Ancestry.com who have a whole new project for DNA analysis....just to name 2. Luck you, gotta go. I will finish later. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com>; <"'mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net'"@mail.rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I fully agree with Nick . . . "Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history." Who among us could disagree with that. Nick (who is one of the DVHH Senior Editors) wrote "The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity." This is absolutely true and the basis of the DVHH mission. Nick is a very factual person and for the sake of the DVHH publications, it has been to our favor. Karen, if you have DS blood running through your veins - you belong on this list. You wrote: " You have completely misunderstood my messages " This is easy to do in emails and postings. Happens to me all the time, but don't let it disdain you from continued participation. We're not in the business of running folks off, the DVHH would not be where it is today, if that were the case. I believe history is in the making, even as we speak/post. We must be mindful of those reading our postings, new researchers could be very impressionable and therefore it's helpful to follow the below mail list guidelines that were updated early 2013 which includes "Cite Sources Rule: for Historical Events & Data": 1: Accuracy is important and sources are vital. We insist that messages regarding historical events or data be supported by solid references. If your statements (or information) are speculation, then label them as such. Ancestor lists are worthless if the information is wrong. When providing lookup information, please provide the book information: title, author, and date. If your information comes from a website, provide the title of the page, author and the URL address. Web addresses change, so this information is as necessary as it would be for a book. 2: The above new "Citing Sources Rule" is being implemented to thwart the posting of erroneous historical information which, usually and rightfully so, generates a correction response. Often the original poster is offended and wants to start an open or private debate, see flaming below as to how this is to be handled. http://www.dvhh.org/community/mail-list.htm Nobody can say that there were NO mixed ethnic marriages among the DS. Personally there were none in my family until immigrating to the US. I've heard "Native-Tongue" mentioned. My Grandmother spoke German, her "Mother Tongue" - NOT "Native Tongue" - big difference. I can also appreciate this not-boring discussion; and certainly welcome any comments of personal experience, hopefully based on facts and not assumptions. (Not saying that you did that Karen) Therefore, this topic may very well call for a study including polling researchers on the mixed ethnic marriages among their Danube Swabian roots, to include dates, what ethnic groups; what villages and in what regions. This would certainly present factual evidence for your position, of which I would personally support your endeavor if you so choose to do this. I know nothing about the DNA research, so I cannot comment on it at all, except to say, I know of NO ONE who has literally connected with a live cousin whereby they can trace the connection to each other in records. It would be cool to know if any lister has been successful in that. Best Regards, Jody McKim Pharr DVHH Publisher -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nick Tullius Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: 3-May-14 15:42 To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Nick! Wow, My apologies Nick! You have completely misunderstood my messages. I was not, am not "discussing" race. I was differentiating between DNA as a race definition in specifically determined analysis, and Nationality/and/or Citizenship which is geographic and historical and has nothing to do with genes. Anything I have said is NOT about "saving anyone from being German"! Why would I malign myself? As we say here, I are One. :) I apologize again if I try your patience or the "regular readers of this List" by posting on this list. That is certainly not my intention. I am just "Discussing". No one need agree with me, find any validity in what I have to say, or even read me. I thought dialogue was the point here. Your history is completely accurate and I am aware of it, as far as it goes. So I guess that begs the question....Are you telling me that I am not part of this community called Donauschwaben? Are you and the "well-established facts" telling me I do not belong on this list or in this community if I don't fit all of your list of "facts"? I would suggest we all find a way to include here because if there are those who object to inquiry and discovery on DVHH then it isn't where I will spend my time going forward, which I guess would be a good thing from your perspective Nick. 1. In the "well-established" history of the specific 3 waves of Settlers, the answer to #1. is Yes. 2. I do not doubt that wherever you are your neighbors and other nationalities use the word Swabian as part of their language over time. Where I am, and certainly evidenced by this list, very few immigrants to Canada, the US and other places mentioned, were aware of, or considered themselves "Swabians". I have volumes of letters from my Grandmother's siblings and not one time in any letter is the word Swabian used, mentioned or referred to. That is antidotal, but based on the List chatter I would say it is not unique! It seems to me it would be interesting to do some study of that phenomenon for this List. And also, not mentioning it does not mean by me that it is something to be ashamed of. None of that is the point here, and no one is trying to malign anyone else. We are just asking WHY?? 3. Two answers....1. is Yes! 2. The dialects arrived in the Banat, and then they were enhanced and changed again by influences in the Villages from the new environment of people and from intermarriage and integration. 4. Okay, in the towns and villages that were majority DS.....they then were majority German speaking of whatever dialect they used. How about the towns and villages where the DS were not majority, color coded vividly by the DVHH map? Several branches of my family lived in one village and worked in another, lived in villages that were majority Serb, and converted from Catholicism to Lutherans for about 20 years in order to conduct business with Serbs, Croats and Russians in their vicinity as it worked out better for business? And they intermarried. But they considered themselves "Banaters" through and through. 5. Yes.....so isn't that what I described....what am I missing? 6. "Well-established" facts are universal, but your number 6 is not that. In your "opinion" what you state in number 6 is so. I for one would disagree with your opinion on that. Inside each of those homes where mixed families occurred, all the influences of the mixing was indeed passed on to the children of that mixture and the next generation were in fact "different" from the previous. That my friend is well-established Sociology. Perhaps in your village or town outside of those homes you or others were not aware of changes. From a scholarly perspective traditions were sacrosanct, but from a sociologic perspective everything was in upheaval going into the 20th century and change was the order of the day. The participants on this List evidence the change, not the constant traditional you describe. I expected all you describe to be so when I got into this. But as I researched and discovered and then began to really read this List, I began to realize that of course there is no purism. Everything and everyone are always nuanced. And considering the history of the region, frankly it is a wonder any traditions were saved. I salute you Nick and everyone else living through all that to actually come out the other end in one piece. Hope I haven't bored you again. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I laughed here Frank! :):) Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: <ffs1@cogeco.ca> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >I was just trying to put some levity into the conversation. > > Frank - Windsor > > On 5/4/2014 3:55 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: >> Thank you Frank. I'm about 40% German, 40% Hungarian, and 20% Croatian, >> Romanian, maybe Czech, and Serbian. Most of Jabuka is some version of >> that because we are all in one way or another related. What does that >> mean? 100% Donauschwaben!!! >> >> Rita from Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: ffs1@cogeco.ca<mailto:ffs1@cogeco.ca> >> Sent: ‎5/‎4/‎2014 1:37 PM >> To: >> donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com<mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs >> Citizenship >> >> I'm Hessian >> >> Frank - Windsor >> >> On 5/4/2014 2:10 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Nick... >>> I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of >>> thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. >>> My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were >>> a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area >>> that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there >>> is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often >>> arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had >>> chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the >>> majority in >>> many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but >>> not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally >>> Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben >>> ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were >>> recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we >>> were being liquidated. >>> But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their >>> Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a >>> badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no >>> reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. >>> Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time >>> resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the >>> Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, >>> Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from >>> Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, >>> despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their >>> neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." >>> Thank you for listening to me, >>> RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>> >>>> Hi Rita, >>>> >>>> I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not >>>> consider >>>> special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The Austro-Hungarian >>>> Empire >>>> comprised many nationalities and most people never carried a passport, >>>> not >>>> even those travelling to America. >>>> But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and >>>> they >>>> generally got along with each other. As you say, those with interethnic >>>> marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously had chosen >>>> the >>>> German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority >>>> in >>>> many parts of the Empire. >>>> Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke >>>> German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about >>>> the >>>> nationality of the Danube Swabians. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Nick Tullius >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita >>>> Schiwanowitsch >>>> Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 >>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>> >>>> Hello Nick... >>>> I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel >>>> that >>>> there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in >>>> mainland >>>> Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat >>>> along >>>> the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large >>>> swath >>>> of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, >>>> there >>>> was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, >>>> Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to >>>> take >>>> advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military >>>> service. >>>> The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along >>>> the >>>> Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that >>>> region, >>>> there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, >>>> they >>>> were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The >>>> borders >>>> at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual >>>> causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add >>>> causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic >>>> group >>>> spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part >>>> of >>>> Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I >>>> know >>>> this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically >>>> segregated by design. And, stayed that way. >>>> I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The >>>> Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. >>>> They >>>> spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much >>>> more >>>> "colorful". >>>> RitaColorado and Jabuka >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 >>>>> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>>> >>>>> Hello Karen! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to >>>>> discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or >>>>> to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. >>>>> >>>>> It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA >>>>> analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube >>>>> Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the >>>>> subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. >>>>> >>>>> But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called >>>>> Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring >>>>> nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own >>>>> self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based >>>>> on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German >>>>> population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact >>>>> with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and >>>>> Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, >>>>> from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I >>>>> can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic >>>>> German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, >>>> developed over their 250-year history. >>>>> In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who >>>>> was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a >>>>> Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the >>>>> number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my >>>>> experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of >>>>> WWII >>>> there were very few. >>>>> The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It >>>>> seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered >>>>> as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous >>>> multiethnic entity. >>>>> Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now >>>>> living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous >>>>> for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Nick Tullius >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>>> message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have Sebastian Markstadt, Markstatt with a note Fb Jahrmarkt M146 Stader 34071 Can someone tell me what that means. Thanks Sincerely, Richard Schreiber

Made me smile too, Frank!!! Rita Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: islandkaren<mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net> Sent: ‎5/‎4/‎2014 3:46 PM To: ffs1@cogeco.ca<mailto:ffs1@cogeco.ca>; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com<mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I laughed here Frank! :):) Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: <ffs1@cogeco.ca> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >I was just trying to put some levity into the conversation. > > Frank - Windsor > > On 5/4/2014 3:55 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: >> Thank you Frank. I'm about 40% German, 40% Hungarian, and 20% Croatian, >> Romanian, maybe Czech, and Serbian. Most of Jabuka is some version of >> that because we are all in one way or another related. What does that >> mean? 100% Donauschwaben!!! >> >> Rita from Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: ffs1@cogeco.ca<mailto:ffs1@cogeco.ca> >> Sent: ‎5/‎4/‎2014 1:37 PM >> To: >> donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com<mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs >> Citizenship >> >> I'm Hessian >> >> Frank - Windsor >> >> On 5/4/2014 2:10 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Nick... >>> I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of >>> thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. >>> My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were >>> a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area >>> that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there >>> is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often >>> arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had >>> chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the >>> majority in >>> many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but >>> not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally >>> Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben >>> ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were >>> recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we >>> were being liquidated. >>> But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their >>> Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a >>> badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no >>> reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. >>> Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time >>> resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the >>> Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, >>> Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from >>> Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, >>> despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their >>> neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." >>> Thank you for listening to me, >>> RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>> >>>> Hi Rita, >>>> >>>> I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not >>>> consider >>>> special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The Austro-Hungarian >>>> Empire >>>> comprised many nationalities and most people never carried a passport, >>>> not >>>> even those travelling to America. >>>> But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and >>>> they >>>> generally got along with each other. As you say, those with interethnic >>>> marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously had chosen >>>> the >>>> German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority >>>> in >>>> many parts of the Empire. >>>> Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke >>>> German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about >>>> the >>>> nationality of the Danube Swabians. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Nick Tullius >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita >>>> Schiwanowitsch >>>> Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 >>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>> >>>> Hello Nick... >>>> I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel >>>> that >>>> there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in >>>> mainland >>>> Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat >>>> along >>>> the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large >>>> swath >>>> of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, >>>> there >>>> was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, >>>> Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to >>>> take >>>> advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military >>>> service. >>>> The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along >>>> the >>>> Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that >>>> region, >>>> there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, >>>> they >>>> were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The >>>> borders >>>> at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual >>>> causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add >>>> causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic >>>> group >>>> spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part >>>> of >>>> Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I >>>> know >>>> this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically >>>> segregated by design. And, stayed that way. >>>> I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The >>>> Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. >>>> They >>>> spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much >>>> more >>>> "colorful". >>>> RitaColorado and Jabuka >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 >>>>> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>>> >>>>> Hello Karen! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to >>>>> discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or >>>>> to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. >>>>> >>>>> It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA >>>>> analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube >>>>> Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the >>>>> subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. >>>>> >>>>> But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called >>>>> Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring >>>>> nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own >>>>> self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based >>>>> on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German >>>>> population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact >>>>> with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and >>>>> Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, >>>>> from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I >>>>> can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic >>>>> German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, >>>> developed over their 250-year history. >>>>> In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who >>>>> was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a >>>>> Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the >>>>> number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my >>>>> experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of >>>>> WWII >>>> there were very few. >>>>> The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It >>>>> seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered >>>>> as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous >>>> multiethnic entity. >>>>> Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now >>>>> living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous >>>>> for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Nick Tullius >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>>> message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There must be a mistake here! No Danube Swabian born and living in the Danube-Swabian settlement area would or could ever claim to be a "Reichsdeutscher". A "Reichsdeutscher" is a German citizen of the German Reich. In modern times they were at various times citizens of Hungary, Romania, Serbia/Yugoslavia, but never citizens of the Reich. Some real Reichsdeutsche did have something like a superiority complex. When our DS men (then called Volksdeutsche) were "volunteered" into the German armed forces (1943) some of them were called insulting names such as Beutedeutscher, meaning "booty German" or "Spoil-of-war German". Many "volunteers" were hugely disappointed. Members of DS families fleeing from the invading Red Army suffered a similar fate when they arrived in the Reich. I know many who returned to (Soviet-occupied) Romania. Those who read my book (thank you!) are already aware of that. Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jody McKim Pharr Sent: 4-May-14 15:00 To: 'Rita Schiwanowitsch'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Rita, You wrote " But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor." Do you really believe this? In all the years I've been involved in DS research and circles I've been in, I've never heard the term "Reich Deutsch" in reference to the ethnicity of the Donauschwaben. The Reich was not in existence during the settler days (1700's). Even if you simply meant it as an example, and I can only speak for the DVHH and DS Club members I know, our Danube Swabian heritage is the purpose we gather and try to keep their memory alive. Closer to home, my own main ancestral line (surname INGRISCH) actually came to Banat while in the military and I'm not sure if he came by boat, wagon or horse. He was born and raised to adulthood in Rojau, Bohemia. His mother tongue was German (I also have the Catholic church records from the early 1700's, in German). He married a DS woman in Banat and so forth, here I am. Even though he was ethnic German (mother tongue=German), I am a Donauschwaben descendant because he married a German Banat settler (mother tongue=German) who traveled down the Danube --- where the term originated from. We all should keep in mind there is so much more to our DS ancestors then the language they spoke, and for that I am honored to wear that badge. Thank you for your perspective Rita. Jody -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita Schiwanowitsch Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:10 PM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Nick... I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." Thank you for listening to me, RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > From: ntullius@rogers.com > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > Citizenship > > Hi Rita, > > I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not > consider special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The > Austro-Hungarian Empire comprised many nationalities and most people > never carried a passport, not even those travelling to America. > But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they > generally got along with each other. As you say, those with > interethnic marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously > had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality > of the majority in many parts of the Empire. > Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke > German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about > the nationality of the Danube Swabians. > > Best regards, > Nick Tullius > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita > Schiwanowitsch > Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Nick... > I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel > that there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in > mainland Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier > (southern Banat along the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the > villages in this large swath of land, there were many nationalities. > Some were from Germany. But, there was also a fair amount of > Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, Serbians, and even a few > Italians. These are people that wanted to take advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. > The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward > along the Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from > in that region, there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In > that early time, they were still dealing with the occasional > incursions of the Turks. The borders at that time also occasionally > fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual causes of death in early > Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add causalities of war to the > mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group spouses available, > so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of Banat. Many had > numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know this > differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically segregated by design. And, stayed that way. > I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The > Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. > They spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage > is much more "colorful". > RitaColorado and Jabuka > > > > > From: ntullius@rogers.com > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 > > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > Hello Karen! > > > > > > > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to > > discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion > > or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA > > analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube > > Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the > > subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. > > > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also > > called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their > > neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for > > their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal > > experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village > > (96 percent German > > population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in > > contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany > > and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian > > literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and > > newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the > > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and > > rests on a solid foundation, > developed over their 250-year history. > > > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant > > who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself > > both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics > > about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old > > country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that > > until the end of WWII > there were very few. > > > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. > > It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be > > remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as > > some amorphous > multiethnic entity. > > > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now > > living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit > > presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Nick Tullius > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi everyone, When I first joined DVHH many years ago a member said my name was not German, it sounded Slavic. This at first upset me. After while I discovered many others were the same. My ancestors entered Hungary in the late 1690's and have been there ever since, until my Granddad came to the USA in 1905 and Grandmom in 1907. The original Bratsko's came from Mähren. They considered themselves German and spoke German. My Father spoke it until he passed away in 2005, at 93. You are what you feel you are. The towns were Biled and Kleinsiedel ,largely German population. I am what I am. I am very proud to consider myself Donauschwabian. Harold Bratsko ----- Original Message ----- From: ffs1@cogeco.ca To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:59:14 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I was just trying to put some levity into the conversation. Frank - Windsor On 5/4/2014 3:55 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: > Thank you Frank. I'm about 40% German, 40% Hungarian, and 20% Croatian, Romanian, maybe Czech, and Serbian. Most of Jabuka is some version of that because we are all in one way or another related. What does that mean? 100% Donauschwaben!!! > > Rita from Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: ffs1@cogeco.ca<mailto:ffs1@cogeco.ca> > Sent: ‎5/‎4/‎2014 1:37 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com<mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I'm Hessian > > Frank - Windsor > > On 5/4/2014 2:10 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Nick... >> I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. >> My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in >> many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. >> But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. >> Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." >> Thank you for listening to me, >> RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz >> >> >> >>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>> >>> Hi Rita, >>> >>> I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not consider >>> special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The Austro-Hungarian Empire >>> comprised many nationalities and most people never carried a passport, not >>> even those travelling to America. >>> But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they >>> generally got along with each other. As you say, those with interethnic >>> marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously had chosen the >>> German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in >>> many parts of the Empire. >>> Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke >>> German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about the >>> nationality of the Danube Swabians. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Nick Tullius >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita >>> Schiwanowitsch >>> Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 >>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>> >>> Hello Nick... >>> I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel that >>> there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in mainland >>> Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat along >>> the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large swath >>> of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, there >>> was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, >>> Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to take >>> advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. >>> The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along the >>> Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that region, >>> there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, they >>> were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The borders >>> at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual >>> causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add >>> causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group >>> spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of >>> Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know >>> this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically >>> segregated by design. And, stayed that way. >>> I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The >>> Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. They >>> spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much more >>> "colorful". >>> RitaColorado and Jabuka >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 >>>> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>> >>>> Hello Karen! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to >>>> discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or >>>> to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. >>>> >>>> It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA >>>> analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube >>>> Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the >>>> subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. >>>> >>>> But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called >>>> Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring >>>> nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own >>>> self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based >>>> on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German >>>> population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact >>>> with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and >>>> Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, >>>> from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I >>>> can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic >>>> German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, >>> developed over their 250-year history. >>>> In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who >>>> was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a >>>> Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the >>>> number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my >>>> experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII >>> there were very few. >>>> The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It >>>> seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered >>>> as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous >>> multiethnic entity. >>>> Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now >>>> living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous >>>> for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Nick Tullius >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>> message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Karen, No, I didn't mean that DNA research is not valuable; - I just don't know anything about it to join in a discussion. But I've been interested in reading the post and can certainly see it playing a role in the future of genealogy, if not already apparently. I just don't "personally" know of anyone on the list who has made an actual connection to a real-time cousin via a DNA sample. The only cousin connections I know of were made via DVHH are here: http://www.dvhh.org/community/connections.htm Jody -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:52 PM To: Jody McKim Pharr; 'Nick Tullius'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; "'mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net'"@mail.rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Jody! Thanks for this. I have so many questions now I don't know where to start. I will start with the last. Are you saying DNA plays no role whatsoever in genealogy, based on "I know nothing about DNA research"?? Please, please tell me I misunderstood you?? In regard to DNA connections with cousins who have found each other, wow, that happens constantly. Start with National Geographic DNA Project or how about Ancestry.com who have a whole new project for DNA analysis....just to name 2. Luck you, gotta go. I will finish later. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com>; <"'mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net'"@mail.rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I fully agree with Nick . . . "Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history." Who among us could disagree with that. Nick (who is one of the DVHH Senior Editors) wrote "The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity." This is absolutely true and the basis of the DVHH mission. Nick is a very factual person and for the sake of the DVHH publications, it has been to our favor. Karen, if you have DS blood running through your veins - you belong on this list. You wrote: " You have completely misunderstood my messages " This is easy to do in emails and postings. Happens to me all the time, but don't let it disdain you from continued participation. We're not in the business of running folks off, the DVHH would not be where it is today, if that were the case. I believe history is in the making, even as we speak/post. We must be mindful of those reading our postings, new researchers could be very impressionable and therefore it's helpful to follow the below mail list guidelines that were updated early 2013 which includes "Cite Sources Rule: for Historical Events & Data": 1: Accuracy is important and sources are vital. We insist that messages regarding historical events or data be supported by solid references. If your statements (or information) are speculation, then label them as such. Ancestor lists are worthless if the information is wrong. When providing lookup information, please provide the book information: title, author, and date. If your information comes from a website, provide the title of the page, author and the URL address. Web addresses change, so this information is as necessary as it would be for a book. 2: The above new "Citing Sources Rule" is being implemented to thwart the posting of erroneous historical information which, usually and rightfully so, generates a correction response. Often the original poster is offended and wants to start an open or private debate, see flaming below as to how this is to be handled. http://www.dvhh.org/community/mail-list.htm Nobody can say that there were NO mixed ethnic marriages among the DS. Personally there were none in my family until immigrating to the US. I've heard "Native-Tongue" mentioned. My Grandmother spoke German, her "Mother Tongue" - NOT "Native Tongue" - big difference. I can also appreciate this not-boring discussion; and certainly welcome any comments of personal experience, hopefully based on facts and not assumptions. (Not saying that you did that Karen) Therefore, this topic may very well call for a study including polling researchers on the mixed ethnic marriages among their Danube Swabian roots, to include dates, what ethnic groups; what villages and in what regions. This would certainly present factual evidence for your position, of which I would personally support your endeavor if you so choose to do this. I know nothing about the DNA research, so I cannot comment on it at all, except to say, I know of NO ONE who has literally connected with a live cousin whereby they can trace the connection to each other in records. It would be cool to know if any lister has been successful in that. Best Regards, Jody McKim Pharr DVHH Publisher -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nick Tullius Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: 3-May-14 15:42 To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Nick! Wow, My apologies Nick! You have completely misunderstood my messages. I was not, am not "discussing" race. I was differentiating between DNA as a race definition in specifically determined analysis, and Nationality/and/or Citizenship which is geographic and historical and has nothing to do with genes. Anything I have said is NOT about "saving anyone from being German"! Why would I malign myself? As we say here, I are One. :) I apologize again if I try your patience or the "regular readers of this List" by posting on this list. That is certainly not my intention. I am just "Discussing". No one need agree with me, find any validity in what I have to say, or even read me. I thought dialogue was the point here. Your history is completely accurate and I am aware of it, as far as it goes. So I guess that begs the question....Are you telling me that I am not part of this community called Donauschwaben? Are you and the "well-established facts" telling me I do not belong on this list or in this community if I don't fit all of your list of "facts"? I would suggest we all find a way to include here because if there are those who object to inquiry and discovery on DVHH then it isn't where I will spend my time going forward, which I guess would be a good thing from your perspective Nick. 1. In the "well-established" history of the specific 3 waves of Settlers, the answer to #1. is Yes. 2. I do not doubt that wherever you are your neighbors and other nationalities use the word Swabian as part of their language over time. Where I am, and certainly evidenced by this list, very few immigrants to Canada, the US and other places mentioned, were aware of, or considered themselves "Swabians". I have volumes of letters from my Grandmother's siblings and not one time in any letter is the word Swabian used, mentioned or referred to. That is antidotal, but based on the List chatter I would say it is not unique! It seems to me it would be interesting to do some study of that phenomenon for this List. And also, not mentioning it does not mean by me that it is something to be ashamed of. None of that is the point here, and no one is trying to malign anyone else. We are just asking WHY?? 3. Two answers....1. is Yes! 2. The dialects arrived in the Banat, and then they were enhanced and changed again by influences in the Villages from the new environment of people and from intermarriage and integration. 4. Okay, in the towns and villages that were majority DS.....they then were majority German speaking of whatever dialect they used. How about the towns and villages where the DS were not majority, color coded vividly by the DVHH map? Several branches of my family lived in one village and worked in another, lived in villages that were majority Serb, and converted from Catholicism to Lutherans for about 20 years in order to conduct business with Serbs, Croats and Russians in their vicinity as it worked out better for business? And they intermarried. But they considered themselves "Banaters" through and through. 5. Yes.....so isn't that what I described....what am I missing? 6. "Well-established" facts are universal, but your number 6 is not that. In your "opinion" what you state in number 6 is so. I for one would disagree with your opinion on that. Inside each of those homes where mixed families occurred, all the influences of the mixing was indeed passed on to the children of that mixture and the next generation were in fact "different" from the previous. That my friend is well-established Sociology. Perhaps in your village or town outside of those homes you or others were not aware of changes. From a scholarly perspective traditions were sacrosanct, but from a sociologic perspective everything was in upheaval going into the 20th century and change was the order of the day. The participants on this List evidence the change, not the constant traditional you describe. I expected all you describe to be so when I got into this. But as I researched and discovered and then began to really read this List, I began to realize that of course there is no purism. Everything and everyone are always nuanced. And considering the history of the region, frankly it is a wonder any traditions were saved. I salute you Nick and everyone else living through all that to actually come out the other end in one piece. Hope I haven't bored you again. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, I would love to know where my ancestor’s originated from: If anyone could do some look up’s for me I would really be thankful. I would like to know if they are any of the migation list to the Banat. Or any other info anyone could give. Thanks for the help in advance. 1. BRATAN 2. JUNGER 3.LEIMETTER 4.KOST I know that these families were in Deustch St. Michael and Bratan’s were in Wiseschdia & Vojtk. Barb D. P.S. Love all the chatter going on right now, learning much and respecting everyone opinion’s, Don’t stop.

Hi Jody! Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last sentence. I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick with the black and white definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Karen, Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for everyone. Jody -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Nick! I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have now met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, Englesbrun, and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, Banaters, Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to understand this fascinating history. It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by the agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on certain definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become universal. It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, and was surprised by what I found. I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton University to have some of my material translated. And for all the "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language Department at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an established history. So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" any definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change the reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all this, is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. I have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has been established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the beginning and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching a vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common law marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village groups were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, and the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing new there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what I have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they left Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to some extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who you seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why did they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but not back to their " Homeland", Germany? Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, had lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no less than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% "German" anymore? Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as hell and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more real and infinitely richer than the definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius

I was just trying to put some levity into the conversation. Frank - Windsor On 5/4/2014 3:55 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: > Thank you Frank. I'm about 40% German, 40% Hungarian, and 20% Croatian, Romanian, maybe Czech, and Serbian. Most of Jabuka is some version of that because we are all in one way or another related. What does that mean? 100% Donauschwaben!!! > > Rita from Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: ffs1@cogeco.ca<mailto:ffs1@cogeco.ca> > Sent: ‎5/‎4/‎2014 1:37 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com<mailto:donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I'm Hessian > > Frank - Windsor > > On 5/4/2014 2:10 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Nick... >> I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. >> My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in >> many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. >> But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. >> Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." >> Thank you for listening to me, >> RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz >> >> >> >>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>> >>> Hi Rita, >>> >>> I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not consider >>> special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The Austro-Hungarian Empire >>> comprised many nationalities and most people never carried a passport, not >>> even those travelling to America. >>> But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they >>> generally got along with each other. As you say, those with interethnic >>> marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously had chosen the >>> German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in >>> many parts of the Empire. >>> Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke >>> German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about the >>> nationality of the Danube Swabians. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Nick Tullius >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita >>> Schiwanowitsch >>> Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 >>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>> >>> Hello Nick... >>> I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel that >>> there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in mainland >>> Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat along >>> the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large swath >>> of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, there >>> was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, >>> Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to take >>> advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. >>> The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along the >>> Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that region, >>> there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, they >>> were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The borders >>> at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual >>> causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add >>> causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group >>> spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of >>> Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know >>> this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically >>> segregated by design. And, stayed that way. >>> I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The >>> Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. They >>> spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much more >>> "colorful". >>> RitaColorado and Jabuka >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 >>>> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>>> >>>> Hello Karen! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to >>>> discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or >>>> to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. >>>> >>>> It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA >>>> analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube >>>> Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the >>>> subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. >>>> >>>> But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called >>>> Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring >>>> nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own >>>> self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based >>>> on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German >>>> population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact >>>> with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and >>>> Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, >>>> from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I >>>> can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic >>>> German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, >>> developed over their 250-year history. >>>> In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who >>>> was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a >>>> Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the >>>> number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my >>>> experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII >>> there were very few. >>>> The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It >>>> seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered >>>> as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous >>> multiethnic entity. >>>> Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now >>>> living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous >>>> for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Nick Tullius >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>> message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jody! Thanks for this. I have so many questions now I don't know where to start. I will start with the last. Are you saying DNA plays no role whatsoever in genealogy, based on "I know nothing about DNA research"?? Please, please tell me I misunderstood you?? In regard to DNA connections with cousins who have found each other, wow, that happens constantly. Start with National Geographic DNA Project or how about Ancestry.com who have a whole new project for DNA analysis....just to name 2. Luck you, gotta go. I will finish later. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com>; <"'mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net'"@mail.rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I fully agree with Nick . . . "Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history." Who among us could disagree with that. Nick (who is one of the DVHH Senior Editors) wrote "The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity." This is absolutely true and the basis of the DVHH mission. Nick is a very factual person and for the sake of the DVHH publications, it has been to our favor. Karen, if you have DS blood running through your veins - you belong on this list. You wrote: " You have completely misunderstood my messages " This is easy to do in emails and postings. Happens to me all the time, but don't let it disdain you from continued participation. We're not in the business of running folks off, the DVHH would not be where it is today, if that were the case. I believe history is in the making, even as we speak/post. We must be mindful of those reading our postings, new researchers could be very impressionable and therefore it's helpful to follow the below mail list guidelines that were updated early 2013 which includes "Cite Sources Rule: for Historical Events & Data": 1: Accuracy is important and sources are vital. We insist that messages regarding historical events or data be supported by solid references. If your statements (or information) are speculation, then label them as such. Ancestor lists are worthless if the information is wrong. When providing lookup information, please provide the book information: title, author, and date. If your information comes from a website, provide the title of the page, author and the URL address. Web addresses change, so this information is as necessary as it would be for a book. 2: The above new "Citing Sources Rule" is being implemented to thwart the posting of erroneous historical information which, usually and rightfully so, generates a correction response. Often the original poster is offended and wants to start an open or private debate, see flaming below as to how this is to be handled. http://www.dvhh.org/community/mail-list.htm Nobody can say that there were NO mixed ethnic marriages among the DS. Personally there were none in my family until immigrating to the US. I've heard "Native-Tongue" mentioned. My Grandmother spoke German, her "Mother Tongue" - NOT "Native Tongue" - big difference. I can also appreciate this not-boring discussion; and certainly welcome any comments of personal experience, hopefully based on facts and not assumptions. (Not saying that you did that Karen) Therefore, this topic may very well call for a study including polling researchers on the mixed ethnic marriages among their Danube Swabian roots, to include dates, what ethnic groups; what villages and in what regions. This would certainly present factual evidence for your position, of which I would personally support your endeavor if you so choose to do this. I know nothing about the DNA research, so I cannot comment on it at all, except to say, I know of NO ONE who has literally connected with a live cousin whereby they can trace the connection to each other in records. It would be cool to know if any lister has been successful in that. Best Regards, Jody McKim Pharr DVHH Publisher -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nick Tullius Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] Sent: 3-May-14 15:42 To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Nick! Wow, My apologies Nick! You have completely misunderstood my messages. I was not, am not "discussing" race. I was differentiating between DNA as a race definition in specifically determined analysis, and Nationality/and/or Citizenship which is geographic and historical and has nothing to do with genes. Anything I have said is NOT about "saving anyone from being German"! Why would I malign myself? As we say here, I are One. :) I apologize again if I try your patience or the "regular readers of this List" by posting on this list. That is certainly not my intention. I am just "Discussing". No one need agree with me, find any validity in what I have to say, or even read me. I thought dialogue was the point here. Your history is completely accurate and I am aware of it, as far as it goes. So I guess that begs the question....Are you telling me that I am not part of this community called Donauschwaben? Are you and the "well-established facts" telling me I do not belong on this list or in this community if I don't fit all of your list of "facts"? I would suggest we all find a way to include here because if there are those who object to inquiry and discovery on DVHH then it isn't where I will spend my time going forward, which I guess would be a good thing from your perspective Nick. 1. In the "well-established" history of the specific 3 waves of Settlers, the answer to #1. is Yes. 2. I do not doubt that wherever you are your neighbors and other nationalities use the word Swabian as part of their language over time. Where I am, and certainly evidenced by this list, very few immigrants to Canada, the US and other places mentioned, were aware of, or considered themselves "Swabians". I have volumes of letters from my Grandmother's siblings and not one time in any letter is the word Swabian used, mentioned or referred to. That is antidotal, but based on the List chatter I would say it is not unique! It seems to me it would be interesting to do some study of that phenomenon for this List. And also, not mentioning it does not mean by me that it is something to be ashamed of. None of that is the point here, and no one is trying to malign anyone else. We are just asking WHY?? 3. Two answers....1. is Yes! 2. The dialects arrived in the Banat, and then they were enhanced and changed again by influences in the Villages from the new environment of people and from intermarriage and integration. 4. Okay, in the towns and villages that were majority DS.....they then were majority German speaking of whatever dialect they used. How about the towns and villages where the DS were not majority, color coded vividly by the DVHH map? Several branches of my family lived in one village and worked in another, lived in villages that were majority Serb, and converted from Catholicism to Lutherans for about 20 years in order to conduct business with Serbs, Croats and Russians in their vicinity as it worked out better for business? And they intermarried. But they considered themselves "Banaters" through and through. 5. Yes.....so isn't that what I described....what am I missing? 6. "Well-established" facts are universal, but your number 6 is not that. In your "opinion" what you state in number 6 is so. I for one would disagree with your opinion on that. Inside each of those homes where mixed families occurred, all the influences of the mixing was indeed passed on to the children of that mixture and the next generation were in fact "different" from the previous. That my friend is well-established Sociology. Perhaps in your village or town outside of those homes you or others were not aware of changes. From a scholarly perspective traditions were sacrosanct, but from a sociologic perspective everything was in upheaval going into the 20th century and change was the order of the day. The participants on this List evidence the change, not the constant traditional you describe. I expected all you describe to be so when I got into this. But as I researched and discovered and then began to really read this List, I began to realize that of course there is no purism. Everything and everyone are always nuanced. And considering the history of the region, frankly it is a wonder any traditions were saved. I salute you Nick and everyone else living through all that to actually come out the other end in one piece. Hope I haven't bored you again. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm Hessian Frank - Windsor On 5/4/2014 2:10 PM, Rita Schiwanowitsch wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Nick... > I know this is not what you meant. But, I have read this line of thought in this and other forums. So, please bear with my ramblings. > My family considered themselves German. Although, ethnically they were a only a small part that way. We are not "special cases". But an area that was more ethnically diverse. "They had a choice?" Not when there is little to choose from. Love is love.... and marriages were often arranged to further the family economically. "Some obviously had chosen the German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in > many parts of the Empire." The key word there is "many". But, but not all. I should not be ashamed because my family is not totally Reich Deutsch. It did not seem to matter to our Donauschwaben ancestors.... It did not matter to the Wehrmacht forces when the were recruiting.... and it did not seem to matter to the Serbians when we were being liquidated. > But, it seems to matter to some Donauschwaben now. They wear their Reich Deutsch (Germans from Germany) on their sleeves as if it were a badge of honor. We are all Donauschwaben. The mere name has no reference to ethnicity. We should not insert one. > Excerpt from Wiki: "The Habsburgs ruling Austria and Hungaryat the time resettled the land with people of various ethnicities from the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the Habsburgs including Magyars, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats,Serbs, Romanians, Ukrainians, and Germanic settlers from Swabia, Hesse, Franconia,Bavaria, Austria, and Alsace-Lorraine. However, despite their origin, they were all referred to as Swabians by their neighbor Serbs, Hungarians, and Romanians." > Thank you for listening to me, > RitaColorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > > > >> From: ntullius@rogers.com >> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 13:08:41 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >> >> Hi Rita, >> >> I fully agree with what you are saying. My oversight that I did not consider >> special cases, such as the Military Frontier. The Austro-Hungarian Empire >> comprised many nationalities and most people never carried a passport, not >> even those travelling to America. >> But people respected the fact that they had a nationality, and they >> generally got along with each other. As you say, those with interethnic >> marriages (or their children) had a choice. Some obviously had chosen the >> German one, which at the the time was the nationality of the majority in >> many parts of the Empire. >> Your conclusion that "They said that they are German. They spoke >> German and had German customs" is significant to the discussion about the >> nationality of the Danube Swabians. >> >> Best regards, >> Nick Tullius >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rita >> Schiwanowitsch >> Sent: 4-May-14 11:00 >> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >> >> Hello Nick... >> I agree with most of what you say except for one small part. I feel that >> there needs to be made a distinction between the settlements in mainland >> Banat and the settlements along the Military Frontier (southern Banat along >> the border of the then Ottoman Empire). In the villages in this large swath >> of land, there were many nationalities. Some were from Germany. But, there >> was also a fair amount of Hungarians, Croatians, Romanians, Czechs, >> Serbians, and even a few Italians. These are people that wanted to take >> advantage of the perks (free land, etc...) that came with military service. >> The area I am specifically referring to is from Belgrade eastward along the >> Danube River. In the various villages my ancestors are from in that region, >> there was a good bit of inter-ethnic marriage. In that early time, they >> were still dealing with the occasional incursions of the Turks. The borders >> at that time also occasionally fluctuated. So, in addition to the usual >> causes of death in early Banat (malaria, typhus....), you had to add >> causalities of war to the mix. This limited the amount of same-ethnic group >> spouses available, so inter ethnic marriages were common in that part of >> Banat. Many had numerous spouses (not at the same time, of course). I know >> this differs greatly from inland Banat, where cities were ethnically >> segregated by design. And, stayed that way. >> I have reseached my family tree and many others in that region. The >> Donauschwaben from there will definitely say that they are German. They >> spoke German and had German customs. But, there broad heritage is much more >> "colorful". >> RitaColorado and Jabuka >> >> >> >>> From: ntullius@rogers.com >>> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 09:34:06 -0400 >>> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship >>> >>> Hello Karen! >>> >>> >>> >>> You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to >>> discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or >>> to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. >>> >>> It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA >>> analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube >>> Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the >>> subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. >>> >>> But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called >>> Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring >>> nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own >>> self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based >>> on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German >>> population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact >>> with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and >>> Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, >>> from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I >>> can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic >>> German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, >> developed over their 250-year history. >>> In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who >>> was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a >>> Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the >>> number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my >>> experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII >> there were very few. >>> The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It >>> seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered >>> as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous >> multiethnic entity. >>> Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now >>> living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous >>> for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Nick Tullius >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>> message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Be happy to Norma. I will put some stuff together and sent it off List, if that's okay. ----- Original Message ----- From: hummrhaven@verizon.net To: islandkaren ; DVHH Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] German-Hungarians This is only in regard to a statement within your discussion regarding the Templars. You stated that even before Columbus sailed.to the New World that "Gothic" structures or churches existed in Canada and the US that were built by the Templars. I am completely unaware of this part of history, and would like to read more about their locations if you would list some reference material. Thank you for indulging my curiosity. Norma Ward Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net>; Subject: [DVHH] German-Hungarians Sent: Sat, May 3, 2014 6:09:48 AM To anyone on this subject line discussing the "ethnic German" issue...I just want to say, my particular responses were prompted by two posts in particular in which folks were "surprised" at their DNA results as they thought they were only "German"...ethnic or otherwise. Initially I was trying to point out that "German" is a Nationality or a Citizenship, not a Race. Also, that Donauschwaben is a descriptive term about a very specific emigrating group of people whose same experience on the Danube is now used to classify them. And now, even some others who did not necessarily have the same transportation experience, but became a part of the end result in what history calls the Banat, in some cases are also "German", but may also be from other areas of Europe than just the geographic area known as Swabia. As a result, many of us whose ancestors lived and worked and thrived in the Hungarian Hapsburg Empire for centuries after migrating from lots of places in western Europe, became "Donauschwaben". To discover through DNA analysis or historical searching or genealogy that one's family group are not all "German", either as ethnic practice or common language, should not be a surprise. Of course people who were not German came to the Banat down the Danube. Of course groups of people who may have lived in the area generally described as the Duchy of Swabia were not all from there "forever" and had most certainly arrived there from every other direction and spoke a variety of languages and dialects. Of course there is and always was intermarriage of tribes, and geographic groups, and races, and mixing of languages. "Dialects" in fact are generally considered to occur as the result of the combining of languages in a single geographic area over a time period longer than 2 generations. Actually all one has to do is read this list...there is huge discussion describing how one "German" group can't understand the other, and who spoke High German, who spoke Austrian Schwobish,! and my father spoke German but my mother's native tongue was French.......and on and on. Someone on this thread said that if your native tongue was not German and you were not from the area of Germany now known as Baden-Wurttemberg, you were Not Donauschwaben. I suppose exclusion as a means to describe and then sequester a group of people may seem appropriate from a purist sense, but it is not accurate or helpful in current context. Both my father's maternal and paternal families going back many centuries emigrated to the geographic areas that are included in Donauschwaban territories. Did they all come down the Danube from the Schwarzwald speaking some dialect of German from about 1722 in three waves of specific groups...nope. Did they all speak German and cook only certain foods in a certain way on specific holidays...nope. Did they all remain pure and "German" and never intermarry or integrate other ethnicities...nope. Are they "Donauschwaben"....Yes they are! They shared, as well as most certainly participated in the culture, politics, geography and history of the unique experience in modern history now known as Donauschwaben. I believe the disconnect between us talking about this probably also occurs because you guys seem to be describing perhaps just the most recent 75 years of historical context. My viewpoint includes a much longer context, that is, from the first waves of settlers and actually even farther back for my father's side. Both are of course relevant. And as I just described previously, both appropriately are blended, mixed, included and valued in this Donauschwaben experience, because that is in fact the reality and history of these families....just read this list. Karen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Karen, Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for everyone. Jody -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Nick! I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have now met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, Englesbrun, and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, Banaters, Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to understand this fascinating history. It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by the agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on certain definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become universal. It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, and was surprised by what I found. I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton University to have some of my material translated. And for all the "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language Department at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an established history. So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" any definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change the reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all this, is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. I have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has been established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the beginning and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching a vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common law marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village groups were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, and the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing new there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what I have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they left Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to some extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who you seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why did they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but not back to their " Homeland", Germany? Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, had lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no less than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% "German" anymore? Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as hell and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more real and infinitely richer than the definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius