Bravo Gary! -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gary Banzhaf Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 4:26 PM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish Schwovish, Schwaebisch, Donauschwaben, Volksdeutsche, Reichsdeutsche - even the word "Nazis" is used !!! Waking up this morning I said to myself: Gary keep out, this discusion is getting to hot. It is where everyone wants to present their knowledge what we are and who we are: the one said he is glad not to be German - well, let him be Ukrainian or Armenian, he still participates in a forum of Donauschwaben who basically and by majority are Germans, whether they intermarried or not. They are in the eyes of Germany "Auslandsdeutsche" - Germans living on foreign soil. This word is fearfully used by group members of the first or second generation immigrants of North America. Only one gutsy post I have read on Friday 5/2. The list member - no functional Director - uses ethnicity; the term for ethnic German-s: "lit. Germans living outside Germany": for instance in South America, Australia or even Cape town, South Africa etc. The DS memory is traumatic, they hated us for being on their land - and they wanted to exterminate us with hate and when I later asked a former associate: why ? he answered: "may be you didn't belong down there anyhow." No wrong doing we did, just trying to save us from approaching evil. No, I wasn't in Gakowa, Jarek or Valpovo. But lets not "Jammer" (live in misery) for ever. The many memorials permittet now by the State of Serbia are for our ancestors dear to us, whom we left 'down there' and they should never be forgotten ! I do not have any other expression or explanation of who we are !! Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fran Matkovich" <mjm1021@comcast.net> To: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com>; "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish >I agree. Only another Schwobish person would even understand what it >meant. > If you told any other American you were Schwobish, they would say HUHHH? > > Fran Matkovich > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eve > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23 PM > To: Joseph Psotka > Cc: dvhh > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too > complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived > notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my > parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told > them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many > of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what > had > gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my > parents about things that were said and they would just make this > gesture - > like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in > particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since > he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but > mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. > > Eve > > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > >> >> My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the >> family; >> >> but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa >> (my mother and I) >> >> or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us >> interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we >> never >> wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we >> could. >> >> >> >> >> The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we >> wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get >> started with strangers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> Joe >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Diane Halas >> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM >> To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' >> Cc: dvhh >> >> >> >> >> >> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She >> said. >> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered >> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher >> who >> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in >> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified >> their >> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine >> and >> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat >> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned >> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. >> >> Diane >> >> Diane Halas >> 239-592-9969 >> >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > -- > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I don,t think they felt ashamed. Why should they? No body likes to think of unpleasant experiences let alone talk about them. I know to be factual. Sent from Helga's Ipad > On May 4, 2014, at 8:23 AM, Linda Jaspersen <ljaspersen@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Joe, Eve, Barb, and DVHH listers, > > > > Thank you so much for sharing your diverse experiences, viewpoints, and > opinions here. I too love this site for the many reasons already stated. > These open and frank discussions about our shared heritage and diversity > can only serve to enrich us all. Please keep sharing and the resulting > dialogue open and free. > > > Linda > > >> On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Eve <evebrown@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Amen Barb - Thank goodness for freedom of speech! >> >> Eve >> >> >>> On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Barb D <bbd2424@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> I guess this is for everyone everywhere. >>> I am so SORRY, that people who were in camps everywhere for one reason or >>> another feel or felt ashamed. All of you detainees should be PROUD! This >>> was >>> thru no fault of your own and happened to many people no matter what >> their >>> ethnic background was or their race or whatever the reasons were. I >> SALUTE >>> all of you, be PROUD THAT YOU SURVIVED!!! and SORRY for those who did >> not, >>> cause that is who you are. It does not matter what your heritage is or >> was, >>> embrace it . This is what makes the world what it is, like it or not! No >>> one >>> no matter who they are or where they came from deserve what so many had >> to >>> endure. My family was very lucky to escape the terrible ordeal that so >>> many >>> did not. The only one that I know about is my great Aunt ANNA >>> LEIMETTER(don't know married name) from Deustch Saint Michael. She was >> sent >>> some where and we don't know where. She was also a survivor (Thank God). >>> This why I love this site. People can say what they feel to be right and >>> the >>> rest of us need to respect and LEARN from what has been said, not take >>> offense. I appreciate all the different opinions and stories and have >>> learned so much that I would have never known about my ancestors and >>> heritage. My grandparents with my mom came to the U.S. in 1922 so they >> only >>> knew what was going on from news & letters. As I have said before I don't >>> remember( and neither does my mom) there being very much talk about the >> old >>> country, She doesn't remember anything, she was 3 when she came. >>> So I guess what I am saying is be PROUD and not ashamed you are not the >>> ones >>> who did this to so many. THEY ARE THE ONE'S TO BE ASHAMED!!! >>> So for my sake and all the others who have join this list, everyone keep >>> the >>> stories and info coming. >>> Barb D >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joseph Psotka >>> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:19 AM >>> To: dvhh >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH]Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish >>> >>> >>> My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the >>> family; >>> >>> but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa >>> (my >>> mother and I) >>> >>> or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us >>> interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we >> never >>> wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we >>> could. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we >>> wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get >>> started with strangers. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Diane Halas >>> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM >>> To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' >>> Cc: dvhh >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She >> said. >>> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered >>> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher >>> who >>> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in >>> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified >> their >>> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine >>> and >>> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat >>> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned >>> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. >>> >>> Diane >>> >>> Diane Halas >>> 239-592-9969 >>> >>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> -- >> Syrmia Regional Coordinator >> http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Oops... I guess I'll correct myself this time. The correct term to identify these settlers is Schwove, not Schwaben (although some use it interchangeably). I found people with names such as: Flanjak, Juhasz, Balogh, Amerjan, Andresz, Martini, Antoni, Katics, Kovacs, Milosovic, Stanivits.... along with other "Germanic"sounding names such as Beck, Müller, Hübel, Mergel, Jerger. These people were all treated by Germany and Jugoslavia as Schwove, and by each other. If you would have asked any of them in 1944 what "nationality/ethnic group (I will used these together at this point in time) they belonged to..... they would have called themselves German, Schwove, Volksdeutsch. But their last names do not support it. Nor do the church records of 1766. So, hence my identity crisis. RitaColorado, Jabuka, Bistritz

I applaud you Gary, that was very well said! Eve On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Ludwig Keck <ludwig.keck@hotmail.com> wrote: > Thank you Gerhard! > > Ludwig > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto: > donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gary Banzhaf > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 4:26 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > Schwovish, Schwaebisch, Donauschwaben, Volksdeutsche, Reichsdeutsche - > even the word "Nazis" is used !!! > Waking up this morning I said to myself: Gary keep out, this discusion is > getting to hot. It is where everyone wants to present their knowledge what > we are and who we are: the one said he is glad not to be German - well, let > him be Ukrainian or Armenian, he still participates in a forum of > Donauschwaben who basically and by majority are Germans, whether they > intermarried or not. > They are in the eyes of Germany "Auslandsdeutsche" - Germans living on > foreign soil. > This word is fearfully used by group members of the first or second > generation immigrants of North America. > Only one gutsy post I have read on Friday 5/2. The list member - no > functional Director - uses ethnicity; the term for ethnic German-s: "lit. > Germans living outside Germany": for instance in South America, Australia > or even Cape town, South Africa etc. > The DS memory is traumatic, they hated us for being on their land - and > they wanted to exterminate us with hate and when I later asked a former > associate: why ? he answered: "may be you didn't belong down there anyhow." > No wrong doing we did, just trying to save us from approaching evil. No, I > wasn't in Gakowa, Jarek or Valpovo. But lets not "Jammer" (live in misery) > for ever. The many memorials permittet now by the State of Serbia are for > our ancestors dear to us, whom we left 'down there' and they should never > be forgotten ! > I do not have any other expression or explanation of who we are !! > > Gary > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fran Matkovich" <mjm1021@comcast.net> > To: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com>; "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> > Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 11:53 AM > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > >I agree. Only another Schwobish person would even understand what it > >meant. > > If you told any other American you were Schwobish, they would say HUHHH? > > > > Fran Matkovich > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Eve > > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23 PM > > To: Joseph Psotka > > Cc: dvhh > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > > > I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too > > complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived > > notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by > my > > parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told > > them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know > many > > of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what > > had > > gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my > > parents about things that were said and they would just make this > > gesture - > > like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in > > particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since > > he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but > > mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. > > > > Eve > > > > > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > > > >> > >> My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > >> family; > >> > >> but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa > >> (my mother and I) > >> > >> or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us > >> interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we > >> never > >> wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way > we > >> could. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> The second generation seems to think that this experience is something > we > >> wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > >> started with strangers. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Joe > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Diane Halas > >> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > >> To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > >> Cc: dvhh > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She > >> said. > >> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > >> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher > >> who > >> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > >> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified > >> their > >> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > >> and > >> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > >> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > >> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > >> > >> Diane > >> > >> Diane Halas > >> 239-592-9969 > >> > >> in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

Thank you Gerhard! Ludwig -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gary Banzhaf Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 4:26 PM To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish Schwovish, Schwaebisch, Donauschwaben, Volksdeutsche, Reichsdeutsche - even the word "Nazis" is used !!! Waking up this morning I said to myself: Gary keep out, this discusion is getting to hot. It is where everyone wants to present their knowledge what we are and who we are: the one said he is glad not to be German - well, let him be Ukrainian or Armenian, he still participates in a forum of Donauschwaben who basically and by majority are Germans, whether they intermarried or not. They are in the eyes of Germany "Auslandsdeutsche" - Germans living on foreign soil. This word is fearfully used by group members of the first or second generation immigrants of North America. Only one gutsy post I have read on Friday 5/2. The list member - no functional Director - uses ethnicity; the term for ethnic German-s: "lit. Germans living outside Germany": for instance in South America, Australia or even Cape town, South Africa etc. The DS memory is traumatic, they hated us for being on their land - and they wanted to exterminate us with hate and when I later asked a former associate: why ? he answered: "may be you didn't belong down there anyhow." No wrong doing we did, just trying to save us from approaching evil. No, I wasn't in Gakowa, Jarek or Valpovo. But lets not "Jammer" (live in misery) for ever. The many memorials permittet now by the State of Serbia are for our ancestors dear to us, whom we left 'down there' and they should never be forgotten ! I do not have any other expression or explanation of who we are !! Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fran Matkovich" <mjm1021@comcast.net> To: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com>; "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish >I agree. Only another Schwobish person would even understand what it >meant. > If you told any other American you were Schwobish, they would say HUHHH? > > Fran Matkovich > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eve > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23 PM > To: Joseph Psotka > Cc: dvhh > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too > complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived > notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my > parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told > them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many > of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what > had > gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my > parents about things that were said and they would just make this > gesture - > like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in > particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since > he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but > mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. > > Eve > > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > >> >> My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the >> family; >> >> but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa >> (my mother and I) >> >> or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us >> interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we >> never >> wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we >> could. >> >> >> >> >> The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we >> wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get >> started with strangers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> Joe >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Diane Halas >> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM >> To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' >> Cc: dvhh >> >> >> >> >> >> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She >> said. >> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered >> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher >> who >> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in >> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified >> their >> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine >> and >> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat >> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned >> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. >> >> Diane >> >> Diane Halas >> 239-592-9969 >> >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > -- > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Schwovish, Schwaebisch, Donauschwaben, Volksdeutsche, Reichsdeutsche - even the word "Nazis" is used !!! Waking up this morning I said to myself: Gary keep out, this discusion is getting to hot. It is where everyone wants to present their knowledge what we are and who we are: the one said he is glad not to be German - well, let him be Ukrainian or Armenian, he still participates in a forum of Donauschwaben who basically and by majority are Germans, whether they intermarried or not. They are in the eyes of Germany "Auslandsdeutsche" - Germans living on foreign soil. This word is fearfully used by group members of the first or second generation immigrants of North America. Only one gutsy post I have read on Friday 5/2. The list member - no functional Director - uses ethnicity; the term for ethnic German-s: "lit. Germans living outside Germany": for instance in South America, Australia or even Cape town, South Africa etc. The DS memory is traumatic, they hated us for being on their land - and they wanted to exterminate us with hate and when I later asked a former associate: why ? he answered: "may be you didn't belong down there anyhow." No wrong doing we did, just trying to save us from approaching evil. No, I wasn't in Gakowa, Jarek or Valpovo. But lets not "Jammer" (live in misery) for ever. The many memorials permittet now by the State of Serbia are for our ancestors dear to us, whom we left 'down there' and they should never be forgotten ! I do not have any other expression or explanation of who we are !! Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fran Matkovich" <mjm1021@comcast.net> To: "Eve" <evebrown@gmail.com>; "Joseph Psotka" <psotka@msn.com> Cc: "dvhh" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish >I agree. Only another Schwobish person would even understand what it >meant. > If you told any other American you were Schwobish, they would say HUHHH? > > Fran Matkovich > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eve > Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23 PM > To: Joseph Psotka > Cc: dvhh > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish > > I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too > complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived > notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my > parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told > them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many > of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what > had > gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my > parents about things that were said and they would just make this > gesture - > like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in > particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since > he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but > mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. > > Eve > > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > >> >> My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the >> family; >> >> but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa >> (my mother and I) >> >> or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us >> interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we >> never >> wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we >> could. >> >> >> >> >> The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we >> wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get >> started with strangers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> Joe >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Diane Halas >> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM >> To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' >> Cc: dvhh >> >> >> >> >> >> I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She >> said. >> "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered >> herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher >> who >> in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in >> Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified >> their >> primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine >> and >> her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat >> before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned >> about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. >> >> Diane >> >> Diane Halas >> 239-592-9969 >> >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > -- > Syrmia Regional Coordinator > http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello John and all, The introductory paragraph on A Short History of the Donauschwaben http://www.dvhh.org/history/1700s/DS-history~tullius.htm gives us the answer in a nutshell. The term Donauschwaben was used mainly in an academic context and was not in common use by our people. Amongst each other we were Schwowe and we spoke Schwowisch. I might also add that in former Yugoslavia the Serbs often called us by the derogatory name "Buba Švaba", translated from the German cockroach or "Schwabenkäfer" Rose On 5 May 2014 15:28, Paul Kurst <pgkurst@gmail.com> wrote: > As a second generation citizen of the States, with two Donauschwaben Great > Grandparents, I have very little to add to the discussion/debate. However, > before I started researching, I was always told that my Great Grandparents > were from Austria-Hungary. I was told that, yet my Great Grandmother > herself, always said she was Schwaben. It was all very confusing to me > until I found DVHH :) > > Paul > St. Michaels, Maryland > > > On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:18 PM, John J. Kornfeind <jmmkorn@cox.net> wrote: > > > In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > > anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, > but I > > have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > > trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not > > remember > > this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > > impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive > term > > in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the > readings I > > have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves > of > > immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > > nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > > Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought > > was > > that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > > assembly point > > in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the > area > > of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately > to > > result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to > be > > 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to > settle > > and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but > > also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not > > trying > > to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my > > perspective from here in Arizona. > > > > Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > > thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > > > > John J. Kornfeind > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > > To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > > <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs > Citizenship > > > > > > > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > > > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. History > > is > > > not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were > > > cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the > > chisel. > > > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > > > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot > > > always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is > > > inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all > have a > > > right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > > > > > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > > > > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great > > to > > > get > > > your detailed and supported opinions. > > > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > > > openly and > > > completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. > > > > > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > > > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > > > > > > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > > >> Catch ya later. > > >> Karen. > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > > > > > >> Jody and Karen, > > >> > > >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > > >> really > > >> like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And > > >> that > > >> preferably before any further public debate. > > >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > > >> is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > > >> that > > >> the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they > > have > > >> a > > >> language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a > history. > > >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > > >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that > the > > >> DS > > >> were not essentially a German group. > > >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because > > reality > > >> interferes. > > >> > > >> Take care, > > >> Nick > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello John, That's partly the way I understood it too. At first, I thought all settlers came down the Danube on Ulmer Schachtels. Then I found the church books from my mothers hometown, and my preconcieved notions changed. From what I have noticed, is that some definitely did come from Germany. But, others also came from within the Austro Hungarian Empire. This is why some families are not listed in the Stader books. They did not need to register because they were moving within the country they already lived. In the Pancevo region of Banat, I have found settlers from the regions of Germany, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, and Italy, France, and Romania. The names of these regions were different at that time. I listed it this way for our modern visual understanding. These people settled in towns and, a couple generations later, became Schwaben. They were treated as one ethnic group.... by each other, Germany, and Yugoslavia. And, from what I understand, this is the reason the term Donauschwaben came to be used (just not by our ancestors). It was an attempt to describe the various ethnic groups that settled in the Pannonian Basin. I do not know any other way to explain what I found in the church books other than to say that there was more than one type of migration pattern. People then, just as people now, will travel to better their economic propects. Thank you, Rita Colorado, Jabuka, and Bistritz > From: jmmkorn@cox.net > To: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; danielashowley@aol.com > Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 13:18:06 -0700 > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I > have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember > this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term > in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I > have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of > immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was > that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > assembly point > in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area > of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to > result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be > 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle > and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but > also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying > to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my > perspective from here in Arizona. > > Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > > John J. Kornfeind > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. History is > > not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were > > cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and cannot > > always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is > > inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all have a > > right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great to > > get > > your detailed and supported opinions. > > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > > openly and > > completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. > > > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > > > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > >> Catch ya later. > >> Karen. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > > > >> Jody and Karen, > >> > >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > >> really > >> like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And > >> that > >> preferably before any further public debate. > >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > >> is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > >> that > >> the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they have > >> a > >> language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. > >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the > >> DS > >> were not essentially a German group. > >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because reality > >> interferes. > >> > >> Take care, > >> Nick > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. Daniela Ivkovic Showley -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great to get your detailed and supported opinions. But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > -----Original Message----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > Catch ya later. > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > Jody and Karen, > > To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > really > like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And that > preferably before any further public debate. > To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > that > the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they have > a > language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. > What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the DS > were not essentially a German group. > Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because reality > interferes. > > Take care, > Nick >

So does ignorance. Americans had no clue what was happening! Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App -----Original Message----- From: Linda Bautz McKenna To: Nick Tullius, 'DVHH' Sent: May 4, 2014 at 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians My grandparents emigrated in 1907 and 1909. During WWII, I've been told that after 20 years in the same neighborhood, their house was egged. Note that they had two sons and two sons-in-law in the U.S. Navy fighting against the Axis. Yes, propaganda runs deep. Linda Bautz McKenna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: "'DVHH'" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians > There is another reason for ethnic Germans in the USA and Canada after WWI > and after WWII to declare themselves to be anything other than German. It > is > that Germans were often hated and sometimes persecuted for being the > enemy. > Many friends, neighbours, and coworkers may have had their men over in > Europe, fighting the Germans. Some of these men may have been killed over > there. In addition, the war propaganda did its best to stir up the hatred > not only of Germany, but of anything in any way German. > There were closings of German newspapers, clubs, schools (or German > classes); the city of Berlin in Ontario was renamed Kitchener. To avoid > any > undue consequences of being seen as the enemy, many ethnic Germans > declared > themselves to be Austrians, Hungarians, Romanians, or citizens of the > other > successor states. The numbers are reflected in the appropriate census > data. > These reactions are understandable: It is normal that nobody wants > to be shunned, disadvantaged, or even persecuted for being "the enemy". >> Nick Tullius >> -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Rezso > Altnetter > Sent: 2-May-14 03:08 > To: DVHH > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians >>>>> Hi Dan, >> I think I can answer your question. > Basically the Austrian-Hungarian Empire had (as the name say) Austria and > Hungary as the rulers and the other regions like Bohemia (now Czech Rep) > or > Transylvania (now Romania) for example were under either Austria or > Hungary. > The Batschka was part of the Hungarian portion so they were after all > Hungarian citizens. >> If you check this map it's easier to understand: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dissolution_of_Austria-Hungary.png > There you have what was under Austria and Hungary and then the division of > the territories after the WWI when the all Empire colapsed. >> My ancestors were also German-Hungarians from Vezsprem (now Hungary). > And in few documents they declared themselves Hungarians and in others > Austrians, but the same as your ancestors, they kept their German culture. >> I hope it helps :) >> Regards, > Roger Altnetter >> From: ajwdcw@windstream.net >> To: Donauschwaben-Villages@rootsweb.com >> Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 20:40:15 -0400 >> Subject: [DVHH] FW: German Hungarians >>>> So, I have a question. I have ancestry that came to the USA before and >> after WWI and they declared themselves to be Hungarian, even though >> they were of German heritage. Before the war their town, in the >> Batschka, was part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. After the war they >> were part of Yugoslavia. So why did they see themselves as being >> Hungarian, as opposed to Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslavian? >> Dan Walter >>>> -----Original Message----- >> From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of >> Steve Berwanger >> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 1:27 PM >> To: <mjm1021@comcast.net>>> Cc: donauschwaben-villages; Barbara >> Subject: Re: [DVHH] German Hungarians >>>> Thanks........ >> This pretty much describes my memories of our family too! >>>> Steve Berwanger >> Sent from my iPad >>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 11:41 AM, <mjm1021@comcast.net> wrote: >>>>>> I never had a problem with my parents' describing themselves as >> German-Hungarians once I went back and studied their history. They >> were Germans who resettled in Hungary but kept their German culture >> mixed with some Hungarian culture. When they came to America they >> shortened it to German Americans. Their culture was still German mixed > with some Hungarian. >> Their descendents became Americans. >>>>>> Fran Matkovich >>>>>> Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tony Fieder >>> To: Eve, Barbara Hilderson >>> Cc: donauschwaben-villages >>> Sent: April 30, 2014 at 5:08 PM >>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named >>>>>> Is there similar information anywhere for Batschka prisoners??? >>> Didn't find my dad's name (Peter) on the site provide below? >>>>>> Anton Fieder >>>>>>>>>> From: evebrown@gmail.com >>>> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:00:40 -0400 >>>> To: bhilderson@msn.com >>>> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: [DVHH] Replying to posts >>>>> This is true, but it helps to know what the response is in regard >>>>> to if >>>> they at least leave the last post. >>>>> Also helpful is for those with digest mode to use the subject line >>>>> for the >>>> one they are responding to - in fact all digest mail needs to have >>>> the subject lines edited. >>>>> Eve >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Barbara Hilderson >><bhilderson@msn.com>wrote: >>>>>> To the DVHH members, I've edited Vol.7.Ossie 114 . Please >>>>>> don't >> take >>>>> offense; but it was very difficult to >>>>> read your postings. Perhaps, if when you reply to a message you >> delete >>>>> all other messages before replying >>>>> it would make your reply easier to read. Barb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yugoslav Post-WWII Jail Camp Prisoners Named >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The names of people imprisoned at a notorious >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> detention camp on the >>>>>>>> Croatian island of Goli Otok were published online as part of >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>> exhibition >>>>>>>> aimed at exposing Communist crimes. >>>>>>>>> http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/list-of-goli-otok-pris >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> ers-published-online?utm_source=Balkan+Transitional+Justice+Da >>>>>>>>> il >>>>>>>>> y+Newsletter&utm_campaign=c28b26ea0b-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_me >>>>>>>>> y+di >>>>>>>>> um=email&utm_term=0_561b9a25c3-c28b26ea0b-319678805 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>> to Karen, >>>>>>> Thank you for the explanation as to >>>>> "Our Beginnings" >>>>> We should be grateful for those who went before us...... >>>>> And.......my "Great Aunt Annie" was the best cook in the world !!!!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Diane: >>>>>>> With all due and grateful respect to everyone, I would hazard a >>>>>>> guess that >>>>> your Grandmother's political consciousness was to some extent >>>>> formed during the short period in the 1800s when there was a "Dual >>>>> Monarchy", and the Austrian aristocracy wanted the land and the >>>>> power, >> but not the "barbarian' >>>>> Hungarians....see the story of Leopold and his suicide. That of >>>>> course is a vast simplification of a very complicated political >>>>> and historical period in history, but it gives you the basics from >>>>> which to begin to understand the geographic and political mess in >>>>> Eastern Europe beginning in the early 1800s and going forward. >>>>>>> I have had a very interesting and informative dialogue going >>>>>>> with Nick >>>>> Tullis who is a first person immigrant and lived through the mess >>>>> real time in the 1900s. He is certainly an eye witness expert on >>>>> this, but I disagree with him that your "native tongue" determines >>>>> your "ethnicity" which then becomes tangled into what your genetic >>>>> makeup reveals and what informs your personal "identity". Your >>>>> story and many others described on this list as well as my own, >>>>> informs this discussion totally. After your description of your >>>>> conversation with your Grandmother, correct me if I am >>>>> wrong...which happens often :).....your Grandmother was referring >>>>> satirically to the fact that in the territories of the Banat, the >>>>> safest and most inclusive identity to have during her lifetime >>>>> there was a political one...."we were all 'Germans' then". >>>>>>> It seems to me all the most recent discussion threads evidence a >>>>>>> real time >>>>> probability that most folks in Eastern Europe during a 200 year or >>>>> more period were in fact a microcosm of like-minded people from >>>>> all over greater Europe and the Indian Peninsula who were seeking >>>>> a peace and prosperity that is universal. They were brave, >>>>> liberty-loving people who had migrated to the vast territories of >>>>> the Hungarian and Russian Empires to be peaceful and productive. >>>>> When you look closely you come to discover that their "ethnicity" >>>>> hailed from a vast number of other areas, and their "citizenship" >>>>> was fragile at best and in constant flux. Just the huge variety >>>>> of different dialects, recipe differences, religious traditions, >>>>> education attitudes, and flat-out languages where sometimes one >>>>> Village group could not understand the language of the Village >>>>> folk right next to them, speaks to that fact and informs it. >>>>>>> None of what I have just said DIMINISHES what anyone then >>>>>>> "thought or >>>>> identified" themselves as, but rather I believe makes the whole >>>>> story far richer and much more interesting! I believe the >>>>> appropriateness of a collective identity called "Donauschwaben" >>>>> does not describe "Germans", but rather a vastly complex and >>>>> exciting grouping of people with the SAMEness of ideal and >>>>> tradition...that is... great food, wonderful and loving "Village" >>>>> identity, the best parts of a "Migration" to something better >>>>> psyche, and a courage and strength that is both unusual >>>>> collectively and magnificent individually. >>>>>>> There was no braver person on this earth than my Grandmother! >>>>>>> And she was >>>>> born a Hungarian, lived as a mixed "German,Serb,Hungarian, >>>>> Russian, Italian, French, Croat", spoke 4 languages and then >>>>> added English, figured out the best of the Eastern European >>>>> ethnicity, was genetically a mixed Caucasian and practiced 3 >>>>> different religious affiliations during her lifetime. >>>>> Then...she became an American. Don't know what you call that, but >>>>> I call it Fabulous!! >>>>>>> Karen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Forwarded Message Attachment-- >>>>> From: MFCobb1@aol.com >>>>> CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com >>>>> To: bbd2424@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; >>>>> dvhalas@comcast.net; jfschambre@comcast.net; easimcox@gmail.com >>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:40:31 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [DVHH] History of Germany - and DNA results >>>>>>> Barb & Karen, I agree whole heartedly--well done. Karen, >>>>>>> thank you for >>>>> the well-thought-out epistle, and I use the word epistle as in a >>>>> formal and >>>>> elegant letter. This is going into my reference files. Thank you > both >>>>> for >>>>> you time and effort. >>>>>>> Marcia Fay (WAGENHALS) Cobb >>>>> (Formerly of Mansfield, Ohio >>>>> (My father was born in Kanak but emigrated from Franzfeld, >>>>> Austria-Hungary) >>>>> Newberg Oregon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This discussion seems to never die. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put togeher a few points about the >>>>> nationality of the Danube Swabians in an attempt to clarify the >>>>> issue. The long-time followers of this List may want to skip them >>>>>>>>>>> 1. The dictionary definition of nationality: a body of >>>>>>>>>>> people >> sharing >>>>> common descent, history, language, etc; they could form a nation; >>>>> or they can form a national minority. >>>>>>> 2. National minorities were officially recognized by the >> governments of >>>>> the more enlightened multi-national states of Europe (they were >>>>> multinational because of the presence of national minorities). >>>>>>> 3. With the multiple changes of borders and/or sovereignty in >>>>>>> the >>>>> territories inhabited by Danube Swabians, the determination of >>>>> nationality by the country of birth would have been impossible. >>>>> Attempts to change their nationality by force were never >>>>> completely successful. >>>>>>> 4. In new countries being built from immigrants, nationality and >>>>> citizenship (here considered the same) were usually acquired by >>>>> birth or by naturalization. >>>>>>> 5. In older countries, such as Germany, belonging to a people in >> the >>>>> ethnic sense is referred to as nationality (but not necessarily >>>>> citizenship). >>>>>>> 6. Even in today's post-Communist States, citizens are assigned >>>>>>> a >>>>> nationality, which can make them members of a >>>>> officially-recognized national minority. >>>>>>>>>>> That the Danube Swabians are an ethnic German group is a >>>>>>>>>>> well-established >>>>> historical fact. It is determined not only by common descent, >>>>> history, language, but a vast cultural heritage in German-language >>>>> literature, in the arts like painting, sculpture and music. It was >>>>> finally demonstrated by their recent (by historical time) >>>>> immigration to and integration in the country of their ancestors. >>>>> The latter are the vast majority; we in the New World (North >>>>> America, Australia, Brazil, etc) are a small minority, and we are >>>>> free to personally decide who we are and what we are. Our >>>>> ancestors made their own decisions. May they rest in peace! >>>>>>>>>>> Nick Tullius >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>>> -- >>>> Syrmia Regional Coordinator >>>> http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>> message >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>> message >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>> message >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> message >>>> ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Richard This is a reference to the Jahrmarkt Familienbuch and the Stader book where more information about Markstadt can be found. You can request a lookup from the list members. Someone may have these references. Fran Matkovich Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App -----Original Message----- From: rschreiber To: donauschwaben-villages Sent: May 4, 2014 at 4:20 PM Subject: [DVHH] Question From Family Book bruckenau I have Sebastian Markstadt, Markstatt with a note Fb Jahrmarkt M146 Stader 34071 Can someone tell me what that means. Thanks Sincerely, Richard Schreiber ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! John J. Kornfeind -------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. History is > not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that actually were > cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and cannot > always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, there is > inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, we all have a > right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great to > get > your detailed and supported opinions. > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > openly and > completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >> Catch ya later. >> Karen. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >> Jody and Karen, >> >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >> really >> like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And >> that >> preferably before any further public debate. >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that >> is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >> that >> the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they have >> a >> language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the >> DS >> were not essentially a German group. >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because reality >> interferes. >> >> Take care, >> Nick >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I agree. Only another Schwobish person would even understand what it meant. If you told any other American you were Schwobish, they would say HUHHH? Fran Matkovich -----Original Message----- From: Eve Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:23 PM To: Joseph Psotka Cc: dvhh Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish I always felt that my parents didn't talk about it because it was too complicated to understand and explain. Most people here had preconceived notions as to what was going on and with the lack of language skills by my parents, it was easier for them to just go with whatever was being told them had happened to them. This probably sounds confusing, but I know many of the people from the church I grew up in told "me" stories about what had gone on with my folks before coming here and I remember questioning my parents about things that were said and they would just make this gesture - like - ach, forget about it, almost in disgust. I don't think my mom in particular ever felt any shame about being German - my dad possibly since he was more aware of what was going on outside their little village, but mom, nah, she has been proud of who she is always. Eve On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Joseph Psotka <psotka@msn.com> wrote: > > My parents also never spoke about being Shwovish to anyone outside the > family; > > but a large part of that was being ashamed of being imprisoned in Gakowa > (my mother and I) > > or being sent to slave labor in the Donetsk(my father). For those of us > interned, it was a very painful and shameful part of our life and we never > wanted to talk about it, and hid it whenever we could, in whatever way we > could. > > > > > The second generation seems to think that this experience is something we > wanted to discuss, but I assure we did not and it is even harder to get > started with strangers. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > Joe > > > > > > From: Diane Halas > Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎30‎, ‎2014 ‎9‎:‎53‎ ‎AM > To: 'John Schambre', 'Eileen Simcox' > Cc: dvhh > > > > > > I once asked my grandma why she had said the family was German. She said. > "My dear, we were all 'Germans' then." I asked her what she considered > herself and she said, "Austro-Hungarian". I told my fifth grade teacher > who > in turn told me there was no such place as Austria-Hungary. Everyone in > Grandma's nuclear family spoke more than one language. She identified > their > primary language as "low German" and her family was from Alsace-Lorraine > and > her grandmother was pure French. The family had emigrated to the Banat > before there was a "Germany". There you have it. I never even learned > about Schwabish until I subscribed to this site. > > Diane > > Diane Halas > 239-592-9969 > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Josef, I ditto that. There are many forms of history: Geo-political, sociological, first person accounts and oral history passed down from generation to generation. Personal accounts and oral history are very subjective, given. But to think that "published" historical works are not free from personal bias is naïve. Read the accounts of Hiroshima in textbooks from the 50s and 60s. I believe that no one has a corner on the truth. That's what research is all about. I research because I'm curious about how things came to be, but I don't necessarily believe everything I read and take it as Gospel. I remember the excitement I felt when I found the ship manifest for the ship on which we immigrated to the US, and the names of my parents, my sister and myself were listed! What I learned (but didn't know for sure) is that the US government saw us as having no citizenship, since we were refugees, and thus "stateless." Did the fact that my parents were "stateless" change their identification as German? Not at all. Let's all take a deep breath and realize that we are all seekers. Lotte -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> To: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; 'DVHH' <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 5, 2014 8:44 am Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great to get your detailed and supported opinions. But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. -----Original Message----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2014 2:35 AM To: "donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net> Subject: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship ----- Original Message ----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com>; "'Jody McKim Pharr'" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > Catch ya later. > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Jody McKim Pharr'" > <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 4:54 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Jody and Karen, > > To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > really > like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And that > preferably before any further public debate. > To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > that > the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they have > a > language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. > What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the DS > were not essentially a German group. > Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because reality > interferes. > > Take care, > Nick > > > -----Original Message----- > From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] > Sent: 4-May-14 16:00 > To: Jody McKim Pharr; 'Nick Tullius'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Jody! > > Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last > sentence. > > I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps > schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick > with the black and white definitions. > Karen. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" > <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Karen, > > Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is > important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. > > We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: > " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" > > And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for > everyone. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > islandkaren > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM > To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Nick! > > I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking > for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your > first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as > many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have > now > met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were > born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, > Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, > Englesbrun, > and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, > Banaters, > Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not > "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in > what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and > Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. > > So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that > please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you > and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to > understand this fascinating history. > It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by > the > agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence > fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in > all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on > certain > definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a > great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become > universal. > It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said > before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, > and > was surprised by what I found. > I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other > spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton > University to have some of my material translated. And for all the > "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our > own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language > Department > at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an > established history. > So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) > > By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" > any > definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change > the > reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to > happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. > > What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all > this, > is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand > experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. > I > have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my > experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has > been > established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real > insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change > religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. > You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? > > My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is > not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with > reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely > important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to > remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all > Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving > back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the > areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, > multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about > being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer > than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the > beginning > and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. > > I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That > does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching > a > vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch > family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed > marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common > law > marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village > groups > were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, > and > the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing > new > there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. > > Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what > I > have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS > members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so > threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they > left > Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to > some > extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? > > While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading >your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who >you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany? > > Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, > had > lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no > less > than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% > "German" anymore? > > Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your > definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as > hell > and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more > real and infinitely richer than the definitions. > > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Karen! > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage > you > or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own > private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) > leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. > You > can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the > Latins used to say. > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 > years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) > and > in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of > Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a > fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, > research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of > the > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests > on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was > not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian > and > an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or > proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a > few > Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It > seems > clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as > something > other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic > entity. > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living > in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any > one > of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > Cheers, > > Nick Tullius > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was great to get your detailed and supported opinions. But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your views. If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. -----Original Message----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2014 2:35 AM To: "donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net" <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.net> Subject: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship ----- Original Message ----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com>; "'Jody McKim Pharr'" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > Catch ya later. > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Jody McKim Pharr'" > <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 4:54 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Jody and Karen, > > To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > really > like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And that > preferably before any further public debate. > To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > that > the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they have > a > language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. > What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the DS > were not essentially a German group. > Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because reality > interferes. > > Take care, > Nick > > > -----Original Message----- > From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] > Sent: 4-May-14 16:00 > To: Jody McKim Pharr; 'Nick Tullius'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Jody! > > Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last > sentence. > > I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps > schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick > with the black and white definitions. > Karen. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" > <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Karen, > > Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is > important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. > > We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: > " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" > > And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for > everyone. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > islandkaren > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM > To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Nick! > > I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking > for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your > first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as > many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have > now > met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were > born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, > Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, > Englesbrun, > and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, > Banaters, > Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not > "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in > what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and > Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. > > So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that > please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you > and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to > understand this fascinating history. > It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by > the > agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence > fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in > all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on > certain > definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a > great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become > universal. > It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said > before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, > and > was surprised by what I found. > I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other > spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton > University to have some of my material translated. And for all the > "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our > own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language > Department > at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an > established history. > So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) > > By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" > any > definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change > the > reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to > happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. > > What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all > this, > is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand > experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. > I > have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my > experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has > been > established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real > insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change > religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. > You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? > > My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is > not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with > reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely > important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to > remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all > Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving > back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the > areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, > multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about > being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer > than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the > beginning > and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. > > I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That > does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching > a > vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch > family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed > marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common > law > marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village > groups > were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, > and > the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing > new > there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. > > Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what > I > have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS > members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so > threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they > left > Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to > some > extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? > > While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading >your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who >you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany? > > Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, > had > lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no > less > than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% > "German" anymore? > > Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your > definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as > hell > and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more > real and infinitely richer than the definitions. > > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Karen! > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage > you > or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own > private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) > leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. > You > can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the > Latins used to say. > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 > years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) > and > in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of > Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a > fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, > research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of > the > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests > on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was > not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian > and > an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or > proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a > few > Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It > seems > clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as > something > other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic > entity. > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living > in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any > one > of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > Cheers, > > Nick Tullius > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Barb, Could you give me first names for Junger & Kost as there are several listings.  I could not find Bratan under "B" or "P".  There is one Leimeter: Johann, son of Josef & Elis Stribert, born 19.5.1741 in Soroksar, married 16.1.1764 Soroksard Katharina Bussler = Buisl, died 11.10.1832 Marienfeld, Banat. Judy ________________________________ From: Barb D <bbd2424@gmail.com> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com  Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 5:05 PM Subject: [DVHH] Stader Lookups Hi, I would love to know where my ancestor’s originated from: If anyone could do some look up’s for me  I would really be thankful. I would like to know if they are any of the migation list to the Banat.  Or any other info anyone could give. Thanks for the help in advance. 1. BRATAN 2. JUNGER 3.LEIMETTER 4.KOST I know that these families were in Deustch St. Michael and Bratan’s were in Wiseschdia & Vojtk. Barb D. P.S. Love all the chatter going on right now, learning much and respecting everyone opinion’s, Don’t stop. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Lister To augment what Nick was saying.   When in 1712 the first German were solicited by Duke Karoly to settle in the Sathmar region they were solicited from Schwaben. The name Schwaben would stick. There after all Hungarian landlords wanted to have Schwaben,  since the Schwaben were known as hard working and good farmers. Although the word in Hungary for German is Nemet. The Hungarians and Serbians, however called them Swabo. Or like we "Schwob". One other reason for the relative pur German is the segregation policy of Empress Maria Theresia. She believed that neither ethnic people nor religious people should be intermixed and therefore we see, a Hungarian town, Serbian town and German town speaking their own language and maintain their own cultures and social mores. Naturally there was some mixed marriages but not on a large scale. The Empress also segregated the religions. The Serbian Orthodox, the Hungarian Catholic. The German however, where again settled in Catholic, example Werbass or Schowee. Only after the Hungarian revolution the Hungarians started a assimilation politics after learning that there were less Hungarian in their country then Germans. A census showed the Hungary had a population of only 20% Hungarians, 25% Germans and 45% Slavics, 10% other nationalities. You also need to realize that Hungary used to be a very large country in Europe which had 11 nationality groups and was the only country governed by a minority group. The name Donauschwaben was coined simply to identify all the Germans that settled in Hungary prior to WWI when Hungary lost most of their territory.   The Germans would continue to use "Schwob" to refer to themselves. They did not call themselves Donauschwaben until after WWII. One other thing is to consider, as the population of the Germans in Hungary grew and the available land diminished. Many families moved to settle other parts in the country, therefore several communities now would have a population of German with Serbian or Hungarian sections. Most of the Germans in such communities with such populations would now speak some Hungarian or Serbian and in some cases intermix. This should give you a clear understanding of the "Why" and the "How" as well as the "Where" . Hans   

----- Original Message ----- From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com>; "'Jody McKim Pharr'" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > Catch ya later. > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Jody McKim Pharr'" > <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 4:54 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Jody and Karen, > > To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > really > like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the GROUP. And that > preferably before any further public debate. > To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that > is pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > that > the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., they have > a > language with many German dialects, a way of life, a culture, a history. > What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that the DS > were not essentially a German group. > Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because reality > interferes. > > Take care, > Nick > > > -----Original Message----- > From: islandkaren [mailto:islandkaren@bellsouth.net] > Sent: 4-May-14 16:00 > To: Jody McKim Pharr; 'Nick Tullius'; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Jody! > > Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last > sentence. > > I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps > schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick > with the black and white definitions. > Karen. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> > To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" > <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM > Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > Karen, > > Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is > important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. > > We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: > " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" > > And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for > everyone. > > Jody > > > -----Original Message----- > From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > islandkaren > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM > To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hi Nick! > > I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking > for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your > first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as > many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have > now > met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were > born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, > Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, > Englesbrun, > and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, > Banaters, > Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not > "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in > what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and > Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. > > So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that > please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you > and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to > understand this fascinating history. > It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by > the > agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence > fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in > all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on > certain > definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a > great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become > universal. > It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said > before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, > and > was surprised by what I found. > I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other > spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton > University to have some of my material translated. And for all the > "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our > own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language > Department > at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an > established history. > So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) > > By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" > any > definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change > the > reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to > happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. > > What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all > this, > is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand > experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. > I > have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my > experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has > been > established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real > insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change > religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. > You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the > Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? > > My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is > not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with > reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely > important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to > remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all > Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving > back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the > areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, > multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about > being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer > than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the > beginning > and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. > > I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That > does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching > a > vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch > family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed > marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common > law > marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village > groups > were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, > and > the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing > new > there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. > > Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what > I > have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS > members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so > threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they > left > Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to > some > extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? > > While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading >your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who >you > seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID > NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why > did > they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South > America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but > not > back to their " Homeland", Germany? > > Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, > had > lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no > less > than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% > "German" anymore? > > Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your > definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as > hell > and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more > real and infinitely richer than the definitions. > > Karen. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM > Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > Hello Karen! > > You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage > you > or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own > private opinion about nationality and citizenship. > > It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) > leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. > You > can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the > Latins used to say. > > But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called > Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring > nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own > self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 > years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) > and > in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of > Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a > fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, > research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of > the > Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests > on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. > > In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was > not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian > and > an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or > proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a > few > Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. > > The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It > seems > clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as > something > other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic > entity. > > Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living > in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any > one > of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? > > Cheers, > > Nick Tullius > >

Karen "Black" meant illegally. There was total chaos after the war, and most people got by, by doing things through the black market. Papers were procured illegally, along with the necessities of life. My parents always told me that the only way they could have gone to Germany was through illegal papers that would first get them to France. In the DP camp, there was a whole alternate economy based on cigarettes. Cigarettes were part of the ration that every adult received from the camp administrators (who at various times were Americans or Austrians or Red Cross. They were a cherished commodity, even for those who didn't smoke, because they could trade cigarettes for sugar or lard or flour. Now as a disclaimer, I was only two when we left in 1952, so I'm not speaking from personal recollection, but I spent hours talking with my grandmother, and actually translated a diary she kept during their flight from Weisskirchen in Banat to Linz and Haid, Wowsers, what an eye-opening and humbling experience for me. I so appreciate what my parents did for me and my sisters. My older sister and I immigrated, my two younger sisters were American-born. Funny, when they were little, we spoke English if we didn't want them to understand what we were saying. The bottom line is, I'm pretty sure most folks were too busy trying to survive to worry much about their ancestry. Fortunately, that's a luxury we can afford now and I love tracking things down! Lotte -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: Lotte Devlin <lielo816@aol.com> Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Thanks Lotte for that explanation. I do understand better now. Can you just take a moment and explain to me what you mean by, and then "only black"? I have no idea at all what that reference even begins to mean. This is exactly what I have been trying to get across with Nick and now Jody. I can read all the same stuff they read, and I can look-up just as well as the next person. But I really want to know about the day to day real things that happened and why in order to better understand my own family. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lotte Devlin To: islandkaren@bellsouth.net ; jodymckimpharr@comcast.net ; ntullius@rogers.com ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Karen, I just need to respond to one part of your eloquent discussion: "Why is it that all these people who you seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why did they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but not back to their " Homeland", Germany?" It was impossible for my parents to go to Germany from the Austrian DP camp, except by way of France, and then only "black". My father refused to do that. Either the German government or the allied occupation forces determined that the refugees who were housed in Austrian DP camps, most of whom came from the southern areas of Yugoslavia, Romania and Hungary, would be absorbed into the Austrian population, rather than be allowed to emigrate to Germany, because of the millions of eastern European Germans from Poland, Silesia, Pomerania and Sudeten Germans who had to be integrated into what was to become West Germany. You have to remember that most of Germany and Austria were destroyed. We were still living in wooden barracks with dirt floors in 1952 when we immigrated, with no prospect of improvement any time soon. The last barracks in Haid were torn down in the early 60s. So rather than not feeling at home in Germany, the "German" Germans didn't want us, and there was little for them to offer at that time. We had family in the US, so that's why my parents opted for the American dream. I can't even imagine what it must have been like for them to leave, believing they would never see their families again. Anyway, not to be too melodramatic, but people couldn't always do what they wanted, because things were really bad. Many who emigrated earlier in the 20s did so because they came to work in the states for a few years to send money home, and so it was a logical place to go. For those of us who came later, this first wave pretty well served as sponsors for the WWII DPs. Lotte -----Original Message----- From: islandkaren <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> To: Jody McKim Pharr <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net>; 'Nick Tullius' <ntullius@rogers.com>; donauschwaben-villages <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Jody! Thanks for your thoughts. You actually make my point in your last sentence. I do not subscribe to black and white at all. Since I don't Nick keeps schooling me on why I should get away from the "gray" of reality and stick with the black and white definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jody McKim Pharr" <jodymckimpharr@comcast.net> To: "'islandkaren'" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; "'Nick Tullius'" <ntullius@rogers.com>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:15 PM Subject: RE: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Karen, Thank you for expressing your detailed thoughts of why this matter is important to you and could be to many other researchers on the list. We (the DVHH) should be mindful of those whose response would be: " You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really??" And it would be fair not assume everything is black and white for everyone. Jody -----Original Message----- From: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of islandkaren Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 2:41 PM To: Nick Tullius; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hi Nick! I am not "challenging" your expertise, not for a nanosecond. I am asking for you to help me understand my very own relatives. I do not have your first hand living experience in the Banat. I do have apparently just as many blood relatives coming and going from the Banat. And......you have now met at least One person and a very large family group of people who were born and came from the very same places you did....Nemetszentmihaly, Temeswar, Grossdorf, Hatzfeld, Arad, Nemetszentpeter, Budapest, Englesbrun, and on and on. And they all identified themselves as Hungarians, Banaters, Germans (in my family it was always referred to as German Heritage, not "ethnic Germans") and Romanians. And there are many of my family still in what is now Romania and the Czech Republic, and Hungary and Russia, and Austria and Germany and Italy. None of them used the term Swabian. So if I really am the "First" you have ever met.....can we discuss that please. Cause I seem to feel when I read the List, that lots of "US", you and me and all those folks, have lots of questions and are trying to understand this fascinating history. It just seems to me you are boxed into having an identity established by the agreed upon definitions and you are working real hard to have the evidence fit the end result that has already been decided. I am very aware that in all academic areas there is "established and universal agreement" on certain definitions for things. I am also aware that inside those definitions a great deal of diversity existed before a majority label emerges to become universal. It just seems to me that the "evidence" shows something else. As I said before, I was completely prepared to discovery "purity" in my own story, and was surprised by what I found. I Never Ever heard the term DS, Swabian, Swowisch, Swobe or any other spelling or tense, until I spent $900.00 25 years ago at Princeton University to have some of my material translated. And for all the "established fact" of DS history, I would still challenge that beyond our own community of interest.....cause Princeton University Language Department at that time had very little information about DS....it is not an established history. So tell me what I do with that? Careful?! :):):) By the way, nothing I have said or think for that matter is to "change" any definition of anything, or any one. I certainly do not want to change the reality of my very own relatives. And I certainly don't want anything to happen to this wonderful source called DVHH. What I have been hoping for since I am obviously passionate about all this, is that you folks with first hand information can enrich my secondhand experience, not just tell me that I am somehow illegitimate or incorrect. I have discovered with this LIST that I certainly am not alone in my experience. I can read all about the historical perspective that has been established so what I am hoping to find with folks like you is some real insight into for instance why it is that my Grandmother had to change religions 3 times in her lifetime in order to "get along"? That is real. You come back at me and say, "nope, no one ever did that in all the Villages", there is established fact about that!" Really?? My "sociologic perspective" is day to day. You are exactly right....it is not however irrelevant or incorrect, and has zero to do with reclassification. Remembering our relatives and ancestors is extremely important. But not as we decide to define them. It is most important to remember them the way they actually were. They in fact were not all Germans. My relatives came from areas in Europe that were forever moving back and forth geographically so their identity was very subjective to the areas they inhabited. My relatives were multilingual, multicultural, multireligious, and multinational, and there is nothing "amorphous" about being multiethnic. Quite the contrary, my genealogic story is much richer than just being "German". German is a part of the story. Not the beginning and the end of it. That is so much smaller than the reality. I am sure your experience regarding mixed marriages is true for you. That does not make it universal. Surprising to me upon reading and researching a vast majority of the FBs out there not just regarding my immediate branch family, was to discover the sameness of human nature. There were mixed marriages, many "illegitimate births", the frequent practice of "common law marriage", and the shunning of women when social norms of the village groups were breached, the ability of the fathers to create children and leave, and the protection of the first born male over all other siblings. Nothing new there, and those things happened as frequently as all other cultures. Finally, no one should redefine anything. And certainly not based on what I have to say. But my story is not so different than lots of other DS members....according to our LIst. Why in heaven's name is this so threatening....the recognition that this was a complex, and once they left Western Europe, multinational and multicultural group of people who to some extent became very unique in their success as colonizers? While I am writing this it has occurred to me.....because I am rereading your message to try and be specific, Why is it that all these people who you seem to believe had such a tight grasp on being just "ethnic Germans", DID NOT at the time immigrate straight to Germany when things got bad?? Why did they think it was necessary to emigrate to Canada, USA, Australia, South America, and anywhere else they could get to as quickly as possible, but not back to their " Homeland", Germany? Could it be because after they had been born in a bunch of other places, had lived their whole lives some place other than Germany, and in fact no less than several hundred years had passed...... they just didn't feel 100% "German" anymore? Don't you have any curiosity about That?? I am zero threat to your definitions. I'm just an historical bystander. And....I am curious as hell and love all the stories that don't fit the mold cause they are far more real and infinitely richer than the definitions. Karen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> To: <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:34 AM Subject: [DVHH] FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship Hello Karen! You have not bored me and it is certainly not my intention to discourage you or anybody else from participating in the discussion or to have their own private opinion about nationality and citizenship. It just looks to me like your "sociologic perspective"(and DNA analysis?) leads you to a radical reclassification of the Danube Swabian identity. You can obviously produce a dissertation on the subject but "cui bono?" as the Latins used to say. But first to our points of disagreement. Yes, the DS were also called Germans (germani, nemţi, németek, nemci) by their neighbouring nationalities, and they frequently used that term for their own self-description. That has indeed been my personal experience, based on 25 years of living in a German Banat village (96 percent German population) and in multiethnic Temeswar/Timişoara. I remain in contact with a number of Banat Swabians currently living in Germany and Austria and I have read a fair number of Banat-Swabian literature, from history to poetry and prose, research papers and newspapers. I can assure that the group identity of the Donauschwaben as an ethnic German group is very well established and rests on a solid foundation, developed over their 250-year history. In my 53 years in Canada, I have yet to meet a single DS immigrant who was not aware of his nationality, or did not consider himself both a Swabian and an (ethnic) German. I do not have the statistics about the number or proportion of mixed marriages in the old country, but my experience in a few Banat villages indicates that until the end of WWII there were very few. The objective of DVHH is Remembering Our Danube Swabian Ancestors. It seems clear to me that our ancestors would not want to be remembered as something other than Germans, and certainly not as some amorphous multiethnic entity. Finally, given that the vast majority of our DS compatriots are now living in Germany and Austria, would it not be just a bit presumptuous for any one of us "North American DS" to redefine their nationality? Cheers, Nick Tullius ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message