ditto that -----Original Message----- From: Robert Wolf <bobwolf@prodigy.net> To: 'Rainer Herrmann' <mail@rainerherrmann.de>; DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES <DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, May 6, 2014 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I very much appreciate your comments. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Rainer Herrmann [mailto:mail@rainerherrmann.de] Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 10:42 AM To: 'DVHH' Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was put together. We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again somewhere down the Danube. For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen and all the others please!!! Best regards Rainer Herrmann -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John J. Kornfeind Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! John J. Kornfeind -------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. > History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that > actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, > there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, > we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was > great to get your detailed and supported opinions. > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your > views. > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >> Catch ya later. >> Karen. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >> Jody and Karen, >> >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >> culture, a history. >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >> the DS were not essentially a German group. >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >> reality interferes. >> >> Take care, >> Nick >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Rainer and fellow list members, I too am glad it "cooled" down, but I am also in favor of letting people talk freely about their questions, concerns and experiences - although it may at times be controversial. I personally did not see "race" being used in a negative light, just a matter of what was being discussed. How are others going to learn and grow from this mail list if people don't have a forum to do so. I do want everyone to keep in mind of being respectful and considerate of each other - remember there are some here who have lived their life in the "old country" some with good memories, some not so good, in fact horrific. Our history, no matter how many generations out from living the experience ourselves we are, is a very unusual one and one not recorded in history books or known about by many. Let's share, help others to learn by answering their questions and most of all be kind, courteous and respectful on this list. By all means disagree if that is how you feel, but do so in a respectful manner and remember if you are stating something as a fact - you need to share your source. Eve On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Rainer Herrmann <mail@rainerherrmann.de>wrote: > I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an > enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing > concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some > of > the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am > surprised > that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. > Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history > should > have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. > Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: > > When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him > "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a > translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case > Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from > Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even > when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used > instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and > Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. > > I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der > Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. > There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and > officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger > from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". > Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where > they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was > put together. > > We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem > from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a > distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border > between > the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans > only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And > they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This > is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored > by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did > not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital > for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. > > Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found > out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I > assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were > "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On > their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again > somewhere down the Danube. > > For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My > mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the > Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the > "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress > against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the > doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I > belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all > black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. > > Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the > experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the > idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster > of > the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most > when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the > concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones > with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in > the > superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the > word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the > rare > cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the > "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and > excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. > > Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: > Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on > their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents > blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who > determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single > truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and > where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am > allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen > and all the others please!!! > > Best regards > > Rainer Herrmann > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John > J. > Kornfeind > Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 > An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela > Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I > have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not > remember > this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term > in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I > have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of > immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought > was > that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern > Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this > process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate > peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, > where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only > rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new > people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two > cents > worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. > > Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > > John J. Kornfeind > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > > > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. > > History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that > > actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who > commanded the chisel. > > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > > cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, > > there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, > > we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of > history. > > > > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was > > great to get your detailed and supported opinions. > > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > > openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your > > views. > > > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > > > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! > >> Catch ya later. > >> Karen. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > > > >> Jody and Karen, > >> > >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would > >> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the > >> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. > >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is > >> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, > >> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., > >> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a > >> culture, a history. > >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own > >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that > >> the DS were not essentially a German group. > >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because > >> reality interferes. > >> > >> Take care, > >> Nick > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Syrmia Regional Coordinator http://www.dvhh.org/syrmia

http://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article122488828/Psychische-Belastung-wirkt-sich-auf-die-Enkel-aus.html Hi Joe... Found this interesting article a while ago. It is an article in German that explains how trauma can be passed down to successive generations. Rita > From: psotka@msn.com > To: joepsotka@gmail.com; kandhkiely@rogers.com; rosevetter@gmail.com > Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 14:18:47 -0400 > CC: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Survivor Trauma, Fear, lifelong anxiety, depression, shame, PTSD, and Genocide > > > > > Survivor Trauma, Fear, > lifelong anxiety, depression, shame, PTSD, and Genocide > > > If the Shwovish internment > occurred today, it would be followed by massive counseling and psychological > interventions to prevent all the well known consequences of fear and > helplessness > > > An examination of > approximately 5,000 long-term psychiatric inpatients in Israel identified about > 900 Holocaust survivors, and extraordinarily large number. How many Shwovish survivors of the camps have > unnecessarily suffered nightmares, panic > attacks, depression, and even more serious psychological psychoses is unknown > but certain to exist in large numbers. > My own family bears the scars of witness. These patients were not > treated as unique: trauma-related illnesses were neglected in diagnosis and in decades-long > treatment. I hypothesize that many of these patients could have avoided > lengthy if not life-long psychiatric hospitalizations, had they been able or > enabled by their treaters and by society at large to more openly share their > severe persecution history. > > > The importance of > re-living these traumatic events and sharing them with sympathetic others is a > cornerstone of modern therapeutic processes. > A therapeutic intervention such as video testimony or simply writing a > blog of the experience is a step forward > that helps build a narrative for the traumatic experience and gives it a > coherent expression that helps in > alleviating its symptoms and changing its course. > > > > > > Of course those of us > who survived the camps had no such help, and worse still emigrated to countries > like Austria and Germany that were largely destroyed and suffering greatly from > the war. Those unlucky enough not to > escape the camps were forced into additional forced labor for three more years > before they could reasonably escape. > Their traumatic experiences and traumatic events, from the helplessness of a mother who could > not feed her children; to the helplessness of children who saw their grandparents > starve to death before their eyes, were everywhere; and fear > was a constant of their lives for years. > > > > > > Research on PTSD has > shown that it is not necessary to have faced fear of death to develop the many > parts of the PTSD syndrome: anxiety, depression, flashbacks, intense distress, > suicidal thoughts, feelings of distrust and paranoia, detachment and emotional numbness, > and yes, guilt, shame, and self-blame. > > > (see http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm > > > And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptsd) > > > > > > The camps and slave > labor were especially traumatic, as was the whole experience of supporting the > Russian army in those areas of the Batschka along the prolonged fighting in the > Fall of 1944; but the escapees in the treks out of the region suffered their > own fears and trauma. > > > > > > It is unfortunate that > DVHH offers no guidance to the successor generations about these symptoms of > the events, because the effects linger and reverberate in successive > generations. > > > It is even more > unfortunate when those with the courage to reveal their symptoms are attacked > and ridiculed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Laub, D. "Kann die Psychoanalyse dazu beitragen, > den Volkermord historisch besser zu verstehen?" ("Can Psychoanalysts Enhance Historical > Understanding of Genocide"), Psyche-Z. Psychoanal 57, 2003. > > > Neugebauer, R et al > (2009).Post‐traumatic stress reactions among Rwandan children and adolescents > in the early aftermath of genocide. International Journal of Epidemiology. • > Electronic publication—ahead of print. Newbury, C & Baldwin, H (2000, > July). Aftermath: Women's organizations in post‐conflict Rwanda. Retrieved July > 6, 2009, from U.S. Agency for International Development Web site: http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNACJ324.pdf > > > > > > http://www.aaanet.org/sections/spa/?page_id=326 > > > > > > Genocide and Mass > Violence: Memory, Symptom, and Intervention Center for the Study of Genocide > and Human Rights > > > Rutgers University > > > September 17-18, 2009 > > > > > > Organizers: Alex > Hinton (Rutgers University) and Devon Hinton (Massachusetts General Hospital) > > > > > > This interdisciplinary > conference included over 25 participants, including several international > speakers, from psychological anthropology, medical anthropology, social > medicine, psychiatry, public health, and psychology. It examined the legacies > of genocide and mass violence on individuals and the social worlds in which > they live, with particular attention to the local processes of recovery from > that legacy. The workshop > > > > > > Alex Hinton > > > Transitional Justice: > Global Mechanisms and Local Realities after Genocide and Mass Violence > (Rutgers, 2010) > > > > Best, > Joe. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was put together. We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again somewhere down the Danube. For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen and all the others please!!! Best regards Rainer Herrmann -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John J. Kornfeind Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! John J. Kornfeind -------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. > History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that > actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, > there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, > we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was > great to get your detailed and supported opinions. > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your > views. > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >> Catch ya later. >> Karen. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >> Jody and Karen, >> >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >> culture, a history. >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >> the DS were not essentially a German group. >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >> reality interferes. >> >> Take care, >> Nick >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Remember the old TV commercial? Some times I feel like a nut, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I feel like a German, sometimes I don't. Frank - Windsor On 5/6/2014 2:04 PM, Dan Larson wrote: > Dear Rainer, > > You and Karen and all the others with widely diverse family histories are all welcome here. > > That's all I will say for now - typing this on my phone. > > Best regards, > > Dan Larson > DVHH President > > Sent from my Droid Maxx > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rainer Herrmann <mail@rainerherrmann.de> > To: 'DVHH' <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tue, 06 May 2014 11:41 AM > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an > enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing > concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of > the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised > that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. > Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should > have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. > Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: > > When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him > "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a > translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case > Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from > Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even > when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used > instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and > Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. > > I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der > Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. > There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and > officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger > from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". > Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where > they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was > put together. > > We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem > from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a > distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between > the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans > only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And > they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This > is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored > by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did > not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital > for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. > > Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found > out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I > assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were > "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On > their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again > somewhere down the Danube. > > For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My > mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the > Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the > "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress > against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the > doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I > belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all > black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. > > Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the > experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the > idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of > the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most > when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the > concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones > with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the > superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the > word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare > cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the > "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and > excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. > > Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: > Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on > their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents > blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who > determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single > truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and > where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am > allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen > and all the others please!!! > > Best regards > > Rainer Herrmann > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John J. > Kornfeind > Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 > An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; > donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela > Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for > anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I > have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been > trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember > this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the > impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term > in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I > have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of > immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many > nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern > Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was > that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common > assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern > Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this > process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate > peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, > where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only > rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new > people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents > worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. > > Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my > thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! > > John J. Kornfeind > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM > To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; > <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > >> I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is >> discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. >> History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that >> actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who > commanded the chisel. >> Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. >> There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and >> cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, >> there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, >> we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of > history. >> >> Daniela Ivkovic Showley >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> >> >> < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was >> great to get your detailed and supported opinions. >> But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself >> openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your >> views. >> >> If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more >> comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> >> >> >>> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >>> Catch ya later. >>> Karen. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> >>> Jody and Karen, >>> >>> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >>> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >>> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >>> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >>> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >>> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >>> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >>> culture, a history. >>> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >>> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >>> the DS were not essentially a German group. >>> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >>> reality interferes. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Nick >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I believe I am your most diverse member. Antoni, Dorner, Vrgovic and now Weisfeld. My mom was DS and my dad a 2nd generation Serb. I never knew what DS was until the Serbian Genealogical society told me to look there for my family. I knew my dad did not want my sister and I to speak any other language because he didn't want us to have accents. I never heard one war time story other than how hard it was to find food. My mom never said a word, and we never asked. Family always came first and we were a tight group. Having recently found other living family has been such an adventure. My parents tried with no luck. Now I am finishing what they started and new found relatives are joining me! Unbelievable! Violette Vrgovich Weisfeld On May 6, 2014, at 2:04 PM, donauschwaben-villages-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > To respond to a Digest Mode message, click reply, CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE TO REFLECT THE TOPIC - then delete any postings/text not specific to the message you are responding to. Otherwise it could cause your message to be too long and not get posted. Your cooperation is appreciated. > Today's Topics: > > 1. WWI History according to the Balkans (Rita Schiwanowitsch) > 2. Re: Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish (Helga Kiely) > 3. Re: Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > (Rainer Herrmann) > 4. Re: Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > (Rita Schiwanowitsch) > 5. Re: German-Hungarians - Surnames - Nationality vs > Citizenship? (Rose Mary Keller Hughes) > 6. Connecting to cousin through DNA (robin pruter) > 7. Re: Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish (Gary Banzhaf) > 8. Re: Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish (Joseph Psotka) > 9. Re: Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish (Henry Fischer) > 10. Szilberman Name (susandekom@yahoo.com) > 11. Ashamed (Barb D) > 12. Re: Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > (Dan Larson) > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment> > <mime-attachment>

I very much appreciate your comments. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Rainer Herrmann [mailto:mail@rainerherrmann.de] Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 10:42 AM To: 'DVHH' Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was put together. We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again somewhere down the Danube. For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen and all the others please!!! Best regards Rainer Herrmann -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John J. Kornfeind Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! John J. Kornfeind -------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. > History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that > actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, > there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, > we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was > great to get your detailed and supported opinions. > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your > views. > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >> Catch ya later. >> Karen. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >> Jody and Karen, >> >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >> culture, a history. >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >> the DS were not essentially a German group. >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >> reality interferes. >> >> Take care, >> Nick >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Your village sounds like Bethlenhaza/Bethausen 60 km east of Temesvar/Timisoara. Try Sorin Fortiu for research at genealogy@banat.ro Glenn Schwartz President, Zichydorf Village Association (http://zichydorfonline.org) Searching: Schwartz, Kleckner, Schönherr in Zichydorf, Banat; Schüssler, Millecker, Lenhardt in Kudritz, Banat; Schwartz, Kory, Pierson/Person in Morawitza, Banat; Kalupsky/Chalupsky in Blumenthal, Banat; Bardua, Kandel, Heuchert in Kolomea, Galicia; Kuntz, Holzer, Kraft, Wolfe, Folk (Volk) in Kutschurgan, Russia; Macht in Volga, Russia. Email: gschwartz@accesscomm.ca On 06/05/2014 4:14 PM, schdan2@sasktel.net wrote: > > I am looking for information concerning my ggf who grew up in Hungary and immigrated to Canada in 1903. > > My ggf's name was Johann Rehm, and while he said he was born in Temesvar, I'm not sure that was the case. > He listed a place called Bathenhaza as his last place he lived before he immigrated. I know when he came over > just really looking for information on the rest of his family, as well as parents names etc and all that goes with that. > Johann was born January 31, 1876. > > He had an older brother who may have also went with the name Johann or Hanns or a variation thereof. > He was born in May of 1873 and lists Kovacsi as his last village he lived in before he immigrated to the United States > with his wife Magdalena. > > If anybody has family books for these two villages, if you could do a ookup for me that would be > very much appreciated. Or others that may have family books around Temesvar if they could do lookups as well. > > Thanking every one in advance. > > Dana Schneider > Saskatoon, Sask. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes!! My early school years here in Canada were during the WWll years ... we were surely fearful but our mother never never allowed us to be ashamed. Thank you Gary. So glad you added this to the discussion. I always knew we spoke 'Shwovish' German but I only was introduced to 'Donauschwaben' in the 70's ... but that's another story. Terry (Miller) Blanchette Sanktannna/Toronto On 6-May-14, at 12:18 PM, Gary Banzhaf wrote: No long speech. Because I'm not a "Schriftgelehrter" (translate) Some of the group members seem to mix up the word "fearful' with "ashamed" - this was never intended to portray us, neither the word "collective guilt" to be carried by millions of inocent Germans. No further opinion needed. Gary Gerhard Banzhaf

 I am looking for information concerning my ggf who grew up in Hungary and immigrated to Canada in 1903.   My ggf's name was Johann Rehm, and while he said he was born in Temesvar, I'm not sure that was the case. He listed a place called Bathenhaza as his last place he lived before he immigrated.  I know when he came over just really looking for information on the rest of his family, as well as parents names etc and all that goes with that. Johann was born January 31, 1876.   He had an older brother who may have also went with the name Johann or Hanns or a variation thereof. He was born in May of 1873 and lists Kovacsi as his last village he lived in before he immigrated to the United States with his wife Magdalena.   If anybody has family books for these two villages, if you could do a ookup for me that would be very much appreciated.  Or others that may have family books around Temesvar if they could do lookups as well.   Thanking every one in advance.   Dana Schneider Saskatoon, Sask.  

Me too! Barb D. -----Original Message----- From: John Schambre Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 3:49 PM To: schdan2@sasktel.net Cc: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Grabatz family book Hello Dana: I am interested in the freepages genealogy site you speak of in your DVHH message. I've looked at Freepages but have a hard time navigating and finding what I'm looking for. If you could point me to the site with a web address that would be wonderful! Thanks John John F. Schambre San Francisco On May 6, 2014, at 11:50 AM, schdan2@sasktel.net wrote: > > > Greetings to all > > I joined this site approximately 4 years ago and wasn't ever someone who > posted a lot. I somehow got deleted from the list > and so I listed again, got added and here I am. > > I was on a freepages genealoy site last week that lists people in the > Hungarian infantry and where there home village was. > > Three men are listed with the last name of Rehm that came from Grabatz. > Rehm is my mothers maiden name. I believe that one of these > three men could be my great grandfathers father. I have been wanting to > go back more generations from my ggf and so I ask, if anyone > out there have a Grabatz family book, if they could look into these names > and email me back, or the list, of each of these family members and > children, > wife, children and any other information that may be listed. > > Thanking you all in advance. > > Dana Schneider > Saskatoon, SK. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

No Barb, never felt ashamed and as for tattoo's, I don't know of any D.S. that had been tattooed either. I actually think it is very unique to have this heritage., so we are "special". However, growing up in Toronto which was classified as a WASP city - white, Anglo Saxon, protestant, - was very difficult. As a a 20 year old in the 1960's, my girlfriend born in Banat and I in Batschka hid our German heritage. Even to the point that we changed our names. Looking back at this, I really don't think it would have affected our popularity with the opposite sex because neither of us ever lost a boyfriend because of it. In the late 1940's and early 50's, we both went to Catholic schools which wasn't a popular thing either, and then while in school, my Catholic teacher didn't like me because of my nationality. In the 3rd grade I was only 7 years old and we started to take Social Studies. The English were fighting the French for control of Canada and I was always pulling for the French to win. It never occurred to me, that the French lost until much later. I have a few sad memorie as well because of my vanity. Many years ago while on a bus going to Cleveland, my grandfather who was sitting in another section came to me and started to speak in German. I was very rude to him and brushed him off. I was not ashamed of being German, but I am ashamed of the way I treated my grandfather because of my own vanity. Please Opa, forgive me. I did not want to be perceived as being "bad" as Germans were at that time and for many years afterwards. Thus I hid my identity. I also believe that living in Canada we were discriminated upon much more than living in the U.S. Canada was an English country with many immigrants from England and we were also governed by British rule. Helga Kiely from Multicultural Toronto! From: Barb D Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 1:48 PM To: DVHH Subject: [DVHH] Ashamed Hi, I guess I need to speak up. When I posted the comments about being ashamed it was in response to a post by Joseph Psotka and others comments about hiding the fact that they were in a camp. I truly didn,t mean to offend anyone, I was not saying that they should be ashamed, quite the opposite! I am second generation american with many different blood lines. Mothers side German, & Hungarian, Fathers side Polish, Bohemian and who knows what else. I have no first hand knowledge of how people felt cause my grandparents came to the U.S. in 1922. I don’t remember that they ever talk a lot about the old country, but I probably wasn’t paying much attention. My Mom doesn’t remember much either. But over the years things I have seen and heard have led me to the impression that people were ashamed. There have been comments posted here, I have seen people try and hide the tattoo’s, and not want to talk about what happened,& people have change their names. I understand that it is not something they really want to remember, but maybe if they didn’t make it seem like a secret more people would understand the whole story and not think that they were ashamed. I DON NOT THINK THAT THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THRU THESE TERRIBLE ORDEALS SHOULD BE ASHAMED. STAND UP AND BE PROUD !!!!!!! Tell us how you feel and why. I am interested even if no one else is, but I am sure there is a whole world who would listen and care not shun. My next comment will not be so long I promise! I have enjoyed all the conversations that have gone on as of late a little heated or not. (Good for our blood pressure) I don’t feel that anyone meant to discredit the others, people have their beliefs and should be able to express them without others being offended. I am learning a lot and I have to sort out what I feel is right for me, as everyone should. I truly feel that there is no right or wrong to this matter. I would also like to think that NO ONE would stop posting , as that would be a huge loss to all of humanity and surely the members of this site. So everyone pull up your boot straps and continue to educate those of us who have so much to learn . (and want to). Thanks for listening to me and my apologies to anyone I may have upset. I really love and appreciate each and everyone of you and your postings. Barb D. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Survivor Trauma, Fear, lifelong anxiety, depression, shame, PTSD, and Genocide If the Shwovish internment occurred today, it would be followed by massive counseling and psychological interventions to prevent all the well known consequences of fear and helplessness An examination of approximately 5,000 long-term psychiatric inpatients in Israel identified about 900 Holocaust survivors, and extraordinarily large number. How many Shwovish survivors of the camps have unnecessarily suffered nightmares, panic attacks, depression, and even more serious psychological psychoses is unknown but certain to exist in large numbers. My own family bears the scars of witness. These patients were not treated as unique: trauma-related illnesses were neglected in diagnosis and in decades-long treatment. I hypothesize that many of these patients could have avoided lengthy if not life-long psychiatric hospitalizations, had they been able or enabled by their treaters and by society at large to more openly share their severe persecution history. The importance of re-living these traumatic events and sharing them with sympathetic others is a cornerstone of modern therapeutic processes. A therapeutic intervention such as video testimony or simply writing a blog of the experience is a step forward that helps build a narrative for the traumatic experience and gives it a coherent expression that helps in alleviating its symptoms and changing its course. Of course those of us who survived the camps had no such help, and worse still emigrated to countries like Austria and Germany that were largely destroyed and suffering greatly from the war. Those unlucky enough not to escape the camps were forced into additional forced labor for three more years before they could reasonably escape. Their traumatic experiences and traumatic events, from the helplessness of a mother who could not feed her children; to the helplessness of children who saw their grandparents starve to death before their eyes, were everywhere; and fear was a constant of their lives for years. Research on PTSD has shown that it is not necessary to have faced fear of death to develop the many parts of the PTSD syndrome: anxiety, depression, flashbacks, intense distress, suicidal thoughts, feelings of distrust and paranoia, detachment and emotional numbness, and yes, guilt, shame, and self-blame. (see http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptsd) The camps and slave labor were especially traumatic, as was the whole experience of supporting the Russian army in those areas of the Batschka along the prolonged fighting in the Fall of 1944; but the escapees in the treks out of the region suffered their own fears and trauma. It is unfortunate that DVHH offers no guidance to the successor generations about these symptoms of the events, because the effects linger and reverberate in successive generations. It is even more unfortunate when those with the courage to reveal their symptoms are attacked and ridiculed. Laub, D. "Kann die Psychoanalyse dazu beitragen, den Volkermord historisch besser zu verstehen?" ("Can Psychoanalysts Enhance Historical Understanding of Genocide"), Psyche-Z. Psychoanal 57, 2003. Neugebauer, R et al (2009).Post‐traumatic stress reactions among Rwandan children and adolescents in the early aftermath of genocide. International Journal of Epidemiology. • Electronic publication—ahead of print. Newbury, C & Baldwin, H (2000, July). Aftermath: Women's organizations in post‐conflict Rwanda. Retrieved July 6, 2009, from U.S. Agency for International Development Web site: http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNACJ324.pdf http://www.aaanet.org/sections/spa/?page_id=326 Genocide and Mass Violence: Memory, Symptom, and Intervention Center for the Study of Genocide and Human Rights Rutgers University September 17-18, 2009 Organizers: Alex Hinton (Rutgers University) and Devon Hinton (Massachusetts General Hospital) This interdisciplinary conference included over 25 participants, including several international speakers, from psychological anthropology, medical anthropology, social medicine, psychiatry, public health, and psychology. It examined the legacies of genocide and mass violence on individuals and the social worlds in which they live, with particular attention to the local processes of recovery from that legacy. The workshop Alex Hinton Transitional Justice: Global Mechanisms and Local Realities after Genocide and Mass Violence (Rutgers, 2010) Best, Joe.

Dear Rainer, You and Karen and all the others with widely diverse family histories are all welcome here. That's all I will say for now - typing this on my phone. Best regards, Dan Larson DVHH President Sent from my Droid Maxx -----Original Message----- From: Rainer Herrmann <mail@rainerherrmann.de> To: 'DVHH' <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, 06 May 2014 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship I am very happy, that the discussion about this topic cooled down. As an enthusiastic member of this community I followed the arguments with growing concern, because I had the impression of increasing tensions between some of the contributors - which I regard as unnecessary as could be. I am surprised that nation, citizenship, etc., even race belonged to the vocabulary used. Most of these words may be necessary in historic research but history should have taught all of us, that they are the basis for many serious problems. Let me explain why I hesitate to use some of the expressions: When a (German-speaking) Swiss wants to offend a German, he calls him "Hura-Schwob". If you pronounce the first word in English you don't need a translation and what a Schwab is, most of us believe to know. In this case Schwob is used as a synonym for German, regardless if the person is from Hamburg (I remember that "Yankee" was another word for US-American, even when he was from the south). In other areas "Sachsen" was sometimes used instead of Germans. May be the reason for that was, that the Sueben and Saxons were the most famous Germanic tribes. I have a book, written 1987 by Josef Volkmar Senz: "Geschichte der Donauschwaben (History of the DS)", ISBN 3-85002-342-7,Publisher: Amalthea. There one can find that the expression "Donauschwaben" was "invented" and officially used 1922 by Hermann Rüdiger from Stuttgart and Robert Sieger from Graz. Before that, our ancestors already called themselves "Schwoba". Rüdiger and Sieger called the Donauschwaben a new-tribe, regardless where they originally came from and how the mixture of original nationalities was put together. We should never forget, that if it is true what the Bible says, we all stem from Adam and Eve, but we don't have to go back that far: Today I live in a distance of about 100 yards south of the LIMES, which was the border between the Roman empire and the "wild Germania". I cannot believe that the Romans only left a bunch of impressive ruins, I bet they also left some DNA. And they had soldiers from all over the Roman empire her who did the same. This is also true for the Turks who deserted the lands that later where restored by our ancestors down the Danube south-east of Vienna. Believe me: They did not leave only a couple of bags of coffee which were the starting capital for the first coffee-shop in Vienna. Probably I should have stopped my family research earlier, because I found out, the my Herrmann-family originally comes from Thun in Switzerland. I assume, they left a catholic area in Switzerland, because they were "reformed protestants" and left for the religiously liberal Palatinate. On their way same of them may have settled in Alsace/Lorraine and met again somewhere down the Danube. For me personally the discussions had - almost - raised another problem: My mother was from Siebenbürgen/Transylvania and only my father was from the Batschka. My only personal common denominator are the Turks, because the "Siebenbürger Sachsen" settled in the Carpath-mountains as a fortress against the Osman emperors already 800 years ago. According to all the doubts expressed in the discussion, where do I belong to??? I am sure, I belong to the grey ones and that is where I want to be. All white and all black is boring it is much better to allow for some nuances. Sorry Nick and some other of the other elder DS! I admit, that the experiences you have made are traumatic, but you paid the bill for the idiots who started a second world-war only a few years after the disaster of the first one ended. Everybody knows that the weak and innocent suffer most when the owners of the only truth start their wars and long before the concentration camps for the DS were invented, there were other, bigger ones with millions of victims, and not only some "Reichsdeutsche" believed in the superiority of the "German race". In the 21st century we should leave the word "race" to dogs, there it might be useful. Sorry, but these are the rare cases where my blood pressure gets out of control. Not all the "Volksdeutsche" were innocent victims. I know all the explanations and excuses why many of my male relatives where in the Waffen-SS. Just a last remark that shows my problem with some part of the discussion: Some countries regard someone as their citizen when birth takes place on their soil (Even on their ships or a plane). Others are sure, the parents blood decides for the nationality of a child. Soil and blood, who determines, and who is right at the end of the day? There is not a single truth and therefore it is only important where one wants to belong to and where one is accepted as part of the whole. I hope after all this I am allowed to belong to and remain in the DVHH-community - together with Karen and all the others please!!! Best regards Rainer Herrmann -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:donauschwaben-villages-bounces@rootsweb.com] Im Auftrag von John J. Kornfeind Gesendet: Montag, 5. Mai 2014 22:18 An: joepsotka@gmail.com; islandkaren@bellsouth.net; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com; Daniela Betreff: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship In this Nationality versus Citizenship question I have been waiting for anyone to bring up just one point. I have not seen all the answers, but I have a point that I have been remembering during all the time I have been trying to research my grandmother's people. Excuse me, if I do not remember this correctly or if I have misunderstood something, but I was under the impression that the term Donauschwaben was not so much the descriptive term in explaining nationality, race or point of origin. I doing the readings I have done, I was left with the impression that through the various waves of immigrants over the decades that the imperials invited these many nationalities to populate and make productive the lands of southeastern Europe, following the removal of the Ottoman Turks. My point or thought was that this term "Donauschwaben" was more the term applied to their common assembly point in the Schwaben lands of what we know today as southern Germany in the area of Ulm. If I could use the verb "to render" this process was ultimately to result in the bringing together of many separate peoples. Literally to be 'shipped down the river' on the Ulmer Schachtels, where they were to settle and revive these lands. So the process not only rendered new lands, but also rendered the people themselves in a sort a new people. I am not trying to step on any one's toes, but this is my two cents worth from my perspective from here in Arizona. Thank you anyone and everyone for reading and trying to understand my thoughts and words. I have said my peace! Be well all! John J. Kornfeind -------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniela" <danielashowley@aol.com> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:36 AM To: <joepsotka@gmail.com>; <islandkaren@bellsouth.net>; <donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DVHH] Fw: FW: German-Hungarians - Nationality vs Citizenship > > I have been here only a short time. I thoroughly enjoy all that is > discussed here. No one need to leave this wonderful DVHH group. > History is not cast in stone. Even ancient historical documents that > actually were cast in stone, were subject to the bias of those who commanded the chisel. > Our Donauschwaben history and culture is very very rich and confusing. > There will and should be many opinions and stories. We do not and > cannot always be in 100% agreement. As in any heartfelt discussion, > there is inevitable heartfelt disagreement. We must always remember, > we all have a right to our own opinion and our own interpretation of history. > > > Daniela Ivkovic Showley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Psotka <joepsotka@gmail.com> > > < Thank you islandkaren for a good fight. On the one hand it was > great to get your detailed and supported opinions. > But on the other hand it would be better to let you express yourself > openly and completely without constant bickering and criticism of your > views. > > If there are other more open and welcoming sites where you feel more > comfortable, please let me know. I'll see you there. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "islandkaren" <islandkaren@bellsouth.net> > > >> Okee-Dokee! Ya know what, you guys win! >> Catch ya later. >> Karen. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nick Tullius" <ntullius@rogers.com> > >> Jody and Karen, >> >> To avoid further gross misrepresentation of what I am saying, I would >> really like to see a distinction made between the PRIVATE and the >> GROUP. And that preferably before any further public debate. >> To try a simplification: I never said that the DS are a group that is >> pure, 100% German. That does not even exist in Germany. Reality is, >> that the Danube Swabians as a group have a German nationality, i.e., >> they have a language with many German dialects, a way of life, a >> culture, a history. >> What I object to, is when I see that Karen is trying to use her own >> family history (and maybe sociology and DNA analysis) to prove that >> the DS were not essentially a German group. >> Looks like a grandiose undertaking, but doomed to failure because >> reality interferes. >> >> Take care, >> Nick >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks alot Diana   Dana On Tue, 6 May 2014 20:55:50 +0100, Diana <diana@villaflorida.co.uk> wrote: Ok Dana, I will check all these pages tomorrow morning and get back to you. > > Best wishes, > > Diana > > -----Original Message----- From: schdan2@sasktel.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 8:45 PM > To: schdan2@sasktel.net ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com ; Diana > Subject: Re: [DVHH] Grabatz family book > > Hi Diana > > First of all I thank you for such a quick response. > > I will mention my great grandfather Johann Rehm, he was the youngest > in the family of four boys, he was born on January 31, 1876. > As the story goes his mother died in childbirth with him. He later > moved to Canada in April of 1903. > > Another brother Hanns(likely just a variation of Johann) was born in > May of 1873. He made a trip to the US in March of 1903, not sure what > happened > but filed for citizenship but said his move to the US was in October of 1909. > > What I am interested in is the names of his other two brothers, if > they immigrated to Canada as well, and of course his parents names, > birthdays, date of death > and anything else that can be learned. > > Again I thank you Diana for the quick response. > > Dana > > On Tue, 6 May 2014 20:29:14 +0100, Diana <diana@villaflorida.co.uk> wrote: > Hi Dana, > > > > There are 19 pages of REHM names in the Grabatz book, so if you > could give > me as much info as you could on your own ancestors > (names, dates), I will > scan the relevant pages for you. > > Diana > > > > -----Original Message----- From: schdan2@sasktel.net > > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 7:50 PM > > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [DVHH] Grabatz family book > > > > > > > > Greetings to all > > > > I joined this site approximately 4 years ago and wasn't ever > someone who > posted a lot. I somehow got deleted from the list > > and so I listed again, got added and here I am. > > I was on a freepages genealoy site last week that lists people in > the > Hungarian infantry and where there home village was. > > Three men are listed with the last name of Rehm that came from > Grabatz. > Rehm is my mothers maiden name. I believe that one of these > > three men could be my great grandfathers father. I have been > wanting to go > back more generations from my ggf and so I ask, if > anyone > > out there have a Grabatz family book, if they could look into these > names > and email me back, or the list, of each of these family > members and > children, > > wife, children and any other information that may be listed. > > Thanking you all in advance. > > Dana Schneider > > Saskatoon, SK. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > > > > > > > >  

Hello Dana: I am interested in the freepages genealogy site you speak of in your DVHH message. I've looked at Freepages but have a hard time navigating and finding what I'm looking for. If you could point me to the site with a web address that would be wonderful! Thanks John John F. Schambre San Francisco On May 6, 2014, at 11:50 AM, schdan2@sasktel.net wrote: > > > Greetings to all > > I joined this site approximately 4 years ago and wasn't ever someone who posted a lot. I somehow got deleted from the list > and so I listed again, got added and here I am. > > I was on a freepages genealoy site last week that lists people in the Hungarian infantry and where there home village was. > > Three men are listed with the last name of Rehm that came from Grabatz. Rehm is my mothers maiden name. I believe that one of these > three men could be my great grandfathers father. I have been wanting to go back more generations from my ggf and so I ask, if anyone > out there have a Grabatz family book, if they could look into these names and email me back, or the list, of each of these family members and children, > wife, children and any other information that may be listed. > > Thanking you all in advance. > > Dana Schneider > Saskatoon, SK. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Diana   First of all I thank you for such a quick response.   I will mention my great grandfather Johann Rehm, he was the youngest in the family of four boys, he was born on January 31, 1876. As the story goes his mother died in childbirth with him. He later moved to Canada in April of 1903.   Another brother Hanns(likely just a variation of Johann) was born in May of 1873.  He made a trip to the US in March of 1903, not sure what happened but filed for citizenship but said his move to the US was in October of 1909.   What I am interested in is the names of his other two brothers, if they immigrated to Canada as well, and of course his parents names, birthdays, date of death and anything else that can be learned.   Again I thank you Diana for the quick response.   Dana On Tue, 6 May 2014 20:29:14 +0100, Diana <diana@villaflorida.co.uk> wrote: Hi Dana, > > There are 19 pages of REHM names in the Grabatz book, so if you could > give me as much info as you could on your own ancestors (names, > dates), I will scan the relevant pages for you. > > Diana > > -----Original Message----- From: schdan2@sasktel.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 7:50 PM > To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DVHH] Grabatz family book > > > > Greetings to all > > I joined this site approximately 4 years ago and wasn't ever someone > who posted a lot. I somehow got deleted from the list > and so I listed again, got added and here I am. > > I was on a freepages genealoy site last week that lists people in the > Hungarian infantry and where there home village was. > > Three men are listed with the last name of Rehm that came from > Grabatz. Rehm is my mothers maiden name. I believe that one of these > three men could be my great grandfathers father. I have been wanting > to go back more generations from my ggf and so I ask, if anyone > out there have a Grabatz family book, if they could look into these > names and email me back, or the list, of each of these family members > and children, > wife, children and any other information that may be listed. > > Thanking you all in advance. > > Dana Schneider > Saskatoon, SK. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >  

Hi Judy, Thanks so much for they speedy reply. I am not sure if you did the look-ups in the Stader Vol. or somewhere else. I have know idea what the first names would have been back then. I only go back to the 1800’s I was hoping that one of these names would show up in the Stader Vol’s or on the Vienna list and I could work backwards or I guess it would really be forwards. The last name I have for Junger (2 dots over the u) is Mihai in Deustch St. Michael. also a Margarthe Junger . “ “ “ “ “ “ Kost would be a George and that would be from DSM also. I guess I am not understanding the Leimeter. How could there be Johann Leimeter if his parents were Stribert’s also it says Josef & Elis, married Katharina.? Please bear with me on this as I am a newbie and get things mixed up. My last Bratan goes back to Wiseschdia or Voiteg. Thanks so much for your time and help. Wish I had the knowledge or resources to help others. Barb D. From: Timothy Ottinger Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 9:28 AM To: Barb D ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Stader Lookups Hello Barb, Could you give me first names for Junger & Kost as there are several listings. I could not find Bratan under "B" or "P". There is one Leimeter: Johann, son of Josef & Elis Stribert, born 19.5.1741 in Soroksar, married 16.1.1764 Soroksard Katharina Bussler = Buisl, died 11.10.1832 Marienfeld, Banat. Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barb D <bbd2424@gmail.com> To: donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 5:05 PM Subject: [DVHH] Stader Lookups Hi, I would love to know where my ancestor’s originated from: If anyone could do some look up’s for me I would really be thankful. I would like to know if they are any of the migation list to the Banat. Or any other info anyone could give. Thanks for the help in advance. 1. BRATAN 2. JUNGER 3.LEIMETTER 4.KOST I know that these families were in Deustch St. Michael and Bratan’s were in Wiseschdia & Vojtk. Barb D. P.S. Love all the chatter going on right now, learning much and respecting everyone opinion’s, Don’t stop. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Diane, Thank you for you special contribution to this discussion. The only thing I would add is that our forebears were seen as strangers and sojourners in the lands in which they lived by the others around them because the vast majority of our people lived in their own isolated enclaves with only minimum interaction with those around them until the latter part of our history. A living parallel exists in Pennsylvania to this day in terms of the Amish with their own culture, self understanding, mode of dress, dialect and attitude towards "outsiders" and their place as strangers and pilgrims living on the fringe of contemporary society. Henry Fischer -----Original Message----- From: Diane Halas Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 9:55 PM To: 'Jody McKim Pharr' ; donauschwaben-villages@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DVHH] Why our parents didn't say they were Shwovish It seems to me that the Banat of the 18th and early 19th century was the America of the late 19th and early 20th century - a great big area of opportunity for people looking for a better life or their own land. But because of the political landscape and the building of designated immigrant villages, it never quite became a true melting pot. There were always people defined "others" , just as there are now. Official language changes altered names and spellings. Many last names are only residual of earliest ancestors; others show direct lines of descent. Ethnicity became diluted; nationality changed; allegiance and identification shifted. Parallels? One may as well ask, "What is an American?" Diane ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONAUSCHWABEN-VILLAGES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

 Greetings to all   I joined this site approximately 4 years ago and wasn't ever someone who posted a lot.  I somehow got deleted from the list and so I listed again, got added and here I am.   I was on a freepages genealoy site last week that lists people in the Hungarian infantry and where there home village was.   Three men are listed with the last name of Rehm that came from Grabatz.  Rehm is my mothers maiden name.  I believe that one of these three men could be my great grandfathers father.  I have been wanting to go back more generations from my ggf and so I ask, if anyone out there have a Grabatz family book, if they could look into these names and email me back, or the list, of each of these family members and children, wife, children and any other information that may be listed.   Thanking you all in advance.   Dana Schneider Saskatoon, SK.