Please Unsubscribe me from this list. I find it is not useful for me. Thank you, mycroft@centrcata.com On Aug 24, 2011, at 4:55 PM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Bernard Morgan) > 2. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 276 (Susan Hedeen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:32:18 +0000 > From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh > To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <SNT128-W619F3BC813DB53CEA5C100BB110@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >>> >>> Is there any connection between: >>> Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn >>> >>> Which list the same person as: >>> 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi* >>> 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi* >>> >>> Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the >>> Mountains", as opposed to >>> "Cormac of the Mountain Fort" >> > > Do I take it that Mac Duinnshl?ibhe does not yield O'Duinn? I found a Dunlavey at YSearch.org and he is I*. I wonder how he compares to the halpotype of the MacGuinness of Iveagh. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:51:32 -0400 > From: Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 276 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Cc: dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <4E5501E4.9060808@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Since the two lands are completely linked through migrations, here is a > summarized brief look at Scotland. The site for further exploration is > at http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2html > > Certainly some from this site has already been here, however for those > who haven't been consider it simply an addition to the discussion > regarding heritages. > > *A Brief History of Scotland * > > Presented by Peter N. Williams, Ph.D. > <http://www.britannia.com/wales/peter.html> > > *Chapter 1: Celtic Scotland* > > There is evidence of human settlement in parts of present day Scotland > <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#> that dates back to > 6,000 BC. The inhabitants were hunters and fishermen. About two thousand > years later, a second group arrived -- the Neolithic people. Some of > their stone houses remain in Orkney; the well-preserved stone-built > village, Skara Brae <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>, > attests to the wealth and stability of its builders. On the mainland, > chambered tombs also show the sophisticated engineering of a settled, > cooperative community. Then came the Beaker folk, named after the shape > of their pottery. It is to these people that we owe the mysterious > groups of huge stone circles and standing stones dotted hither and yon > across the landscape. > > The Bronze Age, or rather, the early and late Bronze Ages, from about > 2,000 to 600 BC, introduced swords, knives, chisels, buckles, cauldrons > and buckets, all evidence of a high level of civilization and creature > comfort that was enhanced by the metal craft learned in the so-called > subsequent Iron Age. Such objects were used by the indigenous Picts, who > lived in the region north of the Firth of Forth, and the Celts, who had > come to live in regions of Britain and Ireland further south. > > It is to the invading Romans > <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#> that we owe our > written history of Britain; before their arrival, it simply wasn't the > Celtic custom to entrust their history to anyone but the holy men and it > was not to be written. The Romans, however, were always anxious to set > down their military triumphs in writing, and from their historians a > picture of Britain and its inhabitants began to emerge. In the fourth > century, a Latin poem describes the people of Tartessos on the Atlantic > coast of Iberia trading with the inhabitants of two large islands, Ierne > and Albion (Ireland and Scotland), people who spoke a Celtic language. > > Ptolemy's geography (written about 150 AD includes a group of five > islands lying between Scotland and Ireland. On them was built, a new > structural form, the broch (a fortified dwelling), an immense round > stone tower. The best preserved is found on Mousa in Shetland. Because > they are perched on hills and headlands, the brochs seem to have been > built by resident lords to protect their settlements from sea-borne > raiders. > > In 55 and 54 BC following his success in subduing most of Gaul, Caesar > turned his attention to the islands of Britain. However, for a few years > afterwards, the Roman armies were fully occupied in suppressing the > revolt of the Gauls on the continent under Vercingetorix, and so Britain > was more-or-less left on its own, apart from its trading links with the > Continent. > > Under the Emperor Claudius, Rome again began to look westwards to the > misty lands over the sea, to a land full of legendary mineral wealth as > well as good grain-growing pastures. Overcoming what amounted to only > token resistance in the southeast, the Romans set up the frontier, the > Fosse Way, running from Lincoln in the north to Essex in the southwest. > Their prosperous villas attest to settled, peaceful conditions in the > agricultural lands to the southeast. It was in the more mountainous > areas west of the line, however, that the much sought-after minerals > lay. And it was there that resistance was fiercest. > > The accounts given by Tacitus (written approximately half a century > after those of Ptolemy) are particularly important, for his > father-in-law was Agricola, appointed Governor of the Roman province of > Britain. Agricola invaded what is now southern Scotland in 81 A.D. > Before that, Roman garrisons had been established at Caerwent (near > present-day Chepstow) in the south and Deva (Chester) in the north to > keep a close eye on the Celtic tribesmen to the west, where the Romans > found it necessary to destroy the Druid center of Wales on the Menai > Straits. > > > *84 AD - MONS GRAUPIUS* > Farther north, under Agricola, the Roman armies vanquished one tribe > after another until a final, decisive battle against Calgacus "the > swordsman" at Mons Graupius in 84 A.D. This ended effective resistance > (the Western Isles and the Highlands were left alone and up until the > Clearances of the 18th century remained very much Celtic countries in > language and culture). Though Agricola may have wished to add Ireland to > his conquests, no Roman expedition was ever taken across the Celtic Sea > to that large, relatively unknown western island. > > The Romans gave the country north of present-day Stirlingshire the name > *Caledonia*. Much of the terrain is rugged and mountainous. In fact, > three fifths of Scotland are mountain, hill and wind-swept moorland, > unsuitable for agriculture and therefore not interesting to the Romans. > In the Welsh language > <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>, widely spoken > throughout the area when the Romans arrived, it was known as *Coed > Celyddon* (the Caledonian Forest), inhabited by spectres and madmen, > including *Myrddyn Wyllt* (Mad Merlin). Tacitus refers to the > inhabitants of the region as britanni. > > It was not only the nature of the terrain that caused the Romans to > abandon their attempts at conquest but the unimagined terrors of this > Celtic world. After the Roman armies had been recalled to Rome, > following Mons Graupius, their strategy towards Scotland was mainly a > defensive one. In 121 AD, upon a visit to Britain, the Emperor Hadrian > had this still-impressive wall built from Solway in the West Coast to > Tyne in the east. > > Twenty years later, the turf-built Antonine Wall, stretching from the > Clyde to the Forth, followed its more famous stone predecessor. The > Caledonians quickly learned to master the art of guerrilla warfare > against a scattered, and no-doubt homesick Roman legion in the North, > including those led by their aging and frustrated commander Severus. It > wasn't long before the Antonine Wall was abandoned, and the troops of > Rome withdrew south to the well known and much longer, stronger > defensive barrier built by Hadrian. Trouble at home meant that by the > end of the fourth century, the remaining Roman outposts in Scotland were > abandoned. Any civilized benefits of Roman rule enjoyed by southern > Britain were thus denied to their northern neighbors who were having > troubles of their own. > > At the time of the withdrawal, Scotland (Alba or Alban) was divided > between four different races. The Picts of Celtic, perhaps of Scythian > stock, predominated lived from Caithness in the north to the Forth in > the south. The Britons of Strathclyde stretched from the Clyde to the > Solway and further south into Cumbria. The late arriving Teutonic > Anglo-Saxons, held the lands to the east south of the Forth into > Northumbria and the kingdom of Dalriada, to the west, including > present-day Argyll <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>, > (the land of the Gael). The Scots, from Northern Ireland occupied > Kintyre and the neighboring islands in the third and fourth centuries. > In perhaps typical Celtic fashion, the Picts and Scots spent more time > fighting against each other than against their common enemies. > > *_Chapter 1: Celtic Scotland Continued_* > <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2a.html> > > > > > On 8/24/2011 3:00 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 - D?l >> Fiatach (Paul Conroy) >> 2. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe (Lochlan@aol.com) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:58:38 -0400 >> From: Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD >> 500-800 - D?l Fiatach >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: >> <CA+2t2c6PNFie4UjCfcz4sDWis=QKpZdHccXRHPytJNR0yNKP-w@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >> >> Here's a link on the Erainn peoples in Ireland, which could also tie >> together a few things: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn >> >> In early Irish genealogical tracts the ?rainn are regarded as an ethnic >>> group, distinct from the Laigin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin> and >>> Cruthin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruthin>. Population groups in >>> Munster classed as ?rainn include the Corcu Lo?gde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde> in >>> southwest County Cork<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Cork>, the >>> M?scraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige> in Counties Cork >>> andTipperary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Tipperary>, the Corcu >>> Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne> in County Kerry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Kerry>, >>> and the Corcu Baiscinn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscinn> in >>> west County Clare<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Clare>. The D?l >>> Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata> and D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> >>> (or Ulaid<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaid>) in Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster> are >>> also considered ?rainn. The ?rainn appear to have been a powerful group in >>> the proto-historic period, but in early historical times were largely >>> reduced to politically marginal status, with the notable exception of the >>> enigmatic Osraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osraige>. The most >>> important of the Munster ?rainn, the Corcu Lo?gde, retained some measure of >>> prestige even after they had become marginalized by the E?ganachta<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta> in >>> the 7th or 8th century.[7]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-6> It >>> is likely that the sometimes powerful U? Liath?in<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Liath%C3%A1in> and >>> their close kin the U? Fidgenti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Fidgenti> originally >>> belonged to the ?rainn/D?irine as well, but were later counted among the >>> E?ganachta for political reasons.[8]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-7> >>> [9]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-8> Another >>> prominent ?rainn people of early Munster are believed to have been the >>> Mairtine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairtine>, who by the early >>> historical period have completely vanished from the Irish landscape, >>> although they may be in part ancestral to the later D?isi Tuisceart<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Tuisceart> >>> and D?l gCais<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais>.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-9> >>> The D?isi Muman<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Muman> may also >>> have had ?rainn origins, but this has long been disputed. >> >> Note that Osraige is Ossory - where my family comes from. >> >> It seems likely the Iverni were related to the >> Darini<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini> of >>> eastern Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster>.[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-10> The >>> name "Darini" implies descent from an ancestor called D?ire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire>, >>> (**D?rios*)[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> as >>> claimed by several historical peoples identified as ?rainn, including the >>> D?l Riata and D?l Fiatach in eastern Ulster[12]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-11> as >>> well the ?rainn of Munster. An early name for Dundrum, County Down<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundrum,_County_Down>, >>> is recorded as *D?n Droma D?irine*, and the name D?irine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine> was >>> applied to the Corcu Lo?gde, further suggesting a relationship between the >>> Darini and the Iverni.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> >> >> The genealogies trace the descent of the ?rainn from two separate eponymous >>> ancestors, Ailill ?rann and ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>. >>> Legendary relatives of the latter include the Cland Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cland_Dedad> (offspring >>> of Deda mac Sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deda_mac_Sin>), a Munster >>> people who appear in the Ulster Cycle<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Cycle>, >>> led by C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>, son of D?ire >>> mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad>, and the >>> legendary High King<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland> Conaire >>> M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>, grandson of Iar and >>> ancestor of the S?l Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>. >>> The historical sept of the U? Maicc Iair ("grandsons of the son of Iar") and >>> the MAQI IARI of ogham inscriptions also appear to be related.[13]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-12> The >>> personal name *Iar* is simply another variant of the root present in >>> Iverni and ?rainn.[14]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-13> Finally, >>> the name *?th*, given in the genealogies as the ultimate ancestor of the >>> Corcu Lo?gde (D?irine) and offering some confusion about their parentage and >>> relation to the Iverni, in fact preserves the same Indo-European root * >>> *peiH-* ("to be fat, swell"),[15]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-14> thus >>> in effect completing a basic picture of the Iverni/?rainn and their kindred >>> in later historical Ireland. >> >> C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD> = Conroy >> Conaire = Conroy >> >> T. F. O'Rahilly<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._F._O%27Rahilly> identified >>> the ?rainn with the mythological Fir Bolg<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg> and >>> the historical Belgae<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae> of Gaul<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul> >>> and Britain<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain>. He proposed >>> that they invaded from Britain and spoke a Brythonic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages> language, >>> which he named Ivernic and identified with a language referred to in a >>> number of early sources as *Iarnnb?lrae*, *Iarnb?lrae*, and *Iarmb?rla*, >>> which, if treated as Old Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish>, >>> means "Iron-speech". The 9th-century Irish dictionary *Sanas Cormaic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic> >>> * ("Cormac's glossary") describes *Iarnnb?lrae* as a recently extinct >>> language which was "dense and difficult", and records two words which >>> derived from it.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> However, >>> by the proto-historical period the ?rainn were evidently Goidelic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goidelic>-speaking, >>> as evidenced by the fact that ogham<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham> inscriptions >>> in Primitive Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish> are most >>> abundant in Counties Cork and Kerry.[16]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-15> >> >> More on C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C?_Ro? >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Gerry, >>> >>> I posted the following about 1 year ago on this list: >>> >>> Going back to the original subject, I see more info on "Conaire M?r" >>> (Conroy the Great) here: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r >>> >>> Specifically that: >>> A descendant of ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>, >>> Conaire belonged to the legendary Clanna Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad>, >>> the legendary royal family of the ?rainn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn>. >>> His descendants in Ireland and Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland> were >>> known as the S?l Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>. >>> The last king in the direct male line from Conaire M?r was Alexander III >>> of Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Scotland>. >>> >>> The Clanna Dedad has an interesting geneology:<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> >>> Descent of the Clanna Dedad >>> >>> Skipped generations are given in the notes. >>> >>> - Sen mac Rosin<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sen_mac_Rosin&action=edit&redlink=1> >>> [22]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-21> >>> - Dedu mac Sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedu_mac_Sin> a quo *Clanna >>> Dedad* >>> - ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad> >>> - Ailill Anglonnach<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ailill_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> >>> - ?ogan [23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-22> >>> - Etersc?l<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etersc%C3%A9l> >>> - Conaire M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> a >>> quo *S?l Conaire* >>> - Mug L?ma >>> - Conaire C?em<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_C%C3%B3em> >>> [24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-23> >>> - Eochaid (Cairpre) Riata (Rigfhota), a quo >>> - *D?l Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata> >>> * >>> - Erc of Dalriada<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erc_of_Dalriada> >>> [25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-24> >>> - Fergus M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_M%C3%B3r> >>> - Domangart R?ti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domangart_R%C3%A9ti> >>> - Gabr?n mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabr%C3%A1n_mac_Domangairt>, >>> a quo >>> - *Cen?l nGabr?in* >>> - *House of Alpin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Alpin> >>> * >>> - *House of Dunkeld<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dunkeld> >>> * >>> - Comgall mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comgall_mac_Domangairt>, >>> a quo >>> - *Cen?l Comgaill* >>> - Loarn mac Eirc<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loarn_mac_Eirc>, >>> a quo >>> - *Cen?l Loairn* >>> - *House of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Moray> >>> * >>> - *Mormaers of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaers_of_Moray> >>> * >>> - ?engus M?r mac Eirc, a quo >>> - *Cen?l n?engusa<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cen%C3%A9l_n%C3%93engusa> >>> * >>> - Cairpre M?sc<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cairpre_M%C3%BAsc&action=edit&redlink=1>, >>> a quo >>> - *M?scraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige> >>> * >>> - Corc Duibne, a quo >>> - *Corcu Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne> >>> * >>> - Cairpre Bascha?n, a quo >>> - *Corcu Baiscind<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscind> >>> * >>> - D?ire mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad> / >>> Dairi Sirchrechtaig / D?ire Doimthech<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_Doimthech> >>> - C? Ro? mac D?ire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD_mac_D%C3%A1ire> >>> - Lugaid mac Con Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugaid_mac_Con_Ro%C3%AD> >>> - Fuirme mac Con Ro? [26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-25> >>> - (F)Iatach Find<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn>, >>> a quo >>> - *D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> >>> * >>> - *D?irine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine>* >>> - *Corcu Lo?gde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde> >>> * [27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-26> >>> [28]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-27> >>> - Conganchnes mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conganchnes_mac_Dedad> >>> - Conall Anglonnach mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conall_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> >>> ,[29]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-28> a >>> quo >>> - *Conaille Muirtheimne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaille_Muirtheimne> >>> * >>> - Eochaid (Echdach/Echach) mac Sin [30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-29> >>> - Deitsin/Deitsini >>> - Dl?thaich/Dluthaig >>> - D?ire/Dairi >>> - Fir furmi [31]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-30> >>> - Fiatach Finn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn> >>> [32]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-31> / >>> Fiachach Fir Umai [33]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-32> >>> - *D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> >>> * >>> >>> >>> So the Dal Fiatach are actually related to the Dal Riata, both of North >>> Eastern Ireland. >>> >>> They are also related to tribes in the South West of Ireland: >>> 1. Corcu Duibne - West Co Kerry, Dingle Penninsula and related areas - >>> O'Shea, O'Falvey and O'Connell >>> 2. Corcu Lo?gde - West Co Cork - O'Driscoll (R-M222), Coffey<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffey> >>> , O'Leary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Leary>, Hennessy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennessy_(disambiguation)> >>> , Flynn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn>, Dinneen<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinneen> >>> . O'Hea<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hea>, Cronin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronin> >>> , Dunlea<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunlea&action=edit&redlink=1> >>> 3. Corcu Bascind - South Co Clare - O'Baskin, MacDermot, >>> O'Donnell/MacDonnell (R-M222), MacMahon >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Paul >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Gerry<gerry@ringofgullion.com> wrote: >>> >>>> John, >>>> >>>> I might be able to shed some light on the Y-DNA of the D?l Fiatach, from >>>> two >>>> sources. One is the McEvoy study and the other is some research that Jerry >>>> Kelly, of this list, has just done for me. >>>> >>>> ========================================================================= >>>> 1) McEvoy et al. >>>> >>>> John posted this some time ago which he culled from the McEvoy study: >>>> Dunleavy Haughey MCGUINNESS >>>> >>>> 5 M222 of 12 14 M222 of 19 24 M222 of 99 >>>> Ulster (1) Most in Ulster Ulster >>>> (11) >>>> Leinster (2) Associated with Donegal&Armagh Connacht (10) >>>> Munster (1) O hEochaidh Leinster >>>> (3) >>>> Connacht (1) >>>> >>>> I post the McGuinnes just to emphasize what John posted below. They are >>>> generally not M222, but HG I. >>>> >>>> McEvoy normalized all of his names to one spelling. He normalized Haughey >>>> and McGuinness, so we don't know the original spellings of >>>> Haughey/Hoey/Hoy. >>>> >>>> As John noted above, the Haughey spelling is common in Donegal and Armagh >>>> while Hoey/Hoy is common in Louth and the surrounding counties. >>>> >>>> The Annals say that the Mac Dunveavys were expelled by the Normans from >>>> Ulidia and some went to Donegal (McInulty sp?). It is also said that some >>>> of >>>> the ? hEochaidh went with them since they were really the same family, >>>> (see >>>> Jerry Kelly's work below). >>>> >>>> So, if any of McEvoy's M222 Haughey were from Donegal, they were from D?l >>>> Fiatach, which was their region of Ulidia. This points to the D?l Fiatach >>>> being M222. >>>> >>>> If any of McEvoy's Haughey were from the Louth area, they were really >>>> Hoey/Hoy/? hEochaidh. The ? hEochaidh were from D?l Fiatach. My family is >>>> Hoy from mid-Louth and is M222. This points to the D?l Fiatach being M222. >>>> >>>> Note. A NPE from say, Donegal for my Louth family, is not likely since my >>>> M222 matches are half Irish and half Scots, which makes sense for a family >>>> based near Downptrick. >>>> >>>> >>>> =========================================================================== >>>> 2) Jerry Kelly's research. >>>> >>>> I thrashed around for months trying to understand what the Annals that I >>>> had >>>> access to, meant about my family. I gave up and went to Jerry Kelly who is >>>> a >>>> fluent Irish speaker and also understands the nuances of the Annals. >>>> >>>> He found that the ? hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshl?ibhe were on the main branch of >>>> the D?l Fiatach rulers and that the Mac Duinnshl?ibhe had barely split >>>> from >>>> the ? hEochaidh before the Normans arrived. >>>> >>>> ?So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined >>>> to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the >>>> rigdamnai >>>> set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac >>>> Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)." Byrne, page 128 >>>> >>>> The ? hEochaidh family, (Sloinne ? hEochaidh as Jerry taught me) took the >>>> name from Eochaidh mac Ardghair, who died in 979. Before that it was just >>>> "son of, son of, ..." >>>> >>>> Jerry used the non-translated Irish Annals to trace the line back reliably >>>> to 455 and less reliably earlier. >>>> >>>> So the ? hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshl?ibhe line were the ruling family of D?l >>>> Fiatach back to the time of Patrick. Jerry has another story of how the >>>> family got to Louth with the help of the O'Loughlins and O'Carrols, but >>>> that >>>> is for another time. >>>> >>>> ========================================================================== >>>> >>>> Conclusion. >>>> >>>> With McEvoy's Haugheys and Jerry's work with the Annals and my M222 test >>>> and >>>> unusual matches, I pretty sure that the D?l Fiatach were M222, at least on >>>> the main line. >>>> >>>> We also know that in tribal societies, the bottom tier doesn't reproduce >>>> itself and the top tier over produces. So some people fall down each >>>> generation and eventually, on the male line, everyone is related. So if >>>> the >>>> ruling line is M222, so are all. >>>> >>>> Gerry Hoy >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 11:58 PM >>>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 >>>> >>>> Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui >>>> Neill >>>> (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into >>>> Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of >>>> the >>>> territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of >>>> Ptolemy >>>> (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the >>>> Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his >>>> argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries >>>> to >>>> connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain >>>> to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems >>>> completely off-base. >>>> >>>> Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes? >>>> >>>> The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off >>>> shoot >>>> of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co. >>>> Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness, >>>> associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest >>>> idea >>>> what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>>> >>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:12:31 -0400 (EDT) >> From: Lochlan@aol.com >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID:<3dad.6b0571ea.3b859bef@aol.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" >> >> >> >> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> jerrykelly@irishtribes.com writes: >> >> But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did not have ready access >> to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac >> Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through O'Donovan's TRIBES AND >> CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY FIACHRACH. After waiting for >> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally published by De B?rca >> Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght disagree on a family origin, >> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. >> >> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a while. >> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end. Not for the faint of heart. >> >> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ >> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) >> >> >> >> I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a copy of O'Hart's Irish >> pedigrees open on his desk at all times. I don't know if that's true or >> not. It was not comforting to hear. >> >> >> John >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 276 >> ****************************************** >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 279 > ******************************************