FYI Dallán Forgaill (also Dallán Forchella; Dallán of Cluain Dalláin, fl. AD 597) was an early Christian Irish poet best known as the writer of the Amra Choluim Chille ("Eulogy of Colm Cille"). He was the Chief Ollam of Ireland .The early Irish poem Rop tú mo baile, the basis of the modern English hymn Be Thou My Vision, is sometimes attributed to him. According to the Life of St. Dallán in the Acta Sanctorum Hiberniae, he was the son of Colla, son of Erc, a descendant of the legendary High King Colla Uais. His mother was called Forchella, and his given name was Eochaid. His first cousin was St.Mogue and his fourth cousin was Saint Tigernach of Clones. The Acta and the preface to the Amra Choluim Chille agree he was born in Maigen (now Ballyconnell), the eastern edge of the territory of the Masraige of Magh Slécht in modern County Cavan. He was not a member of the Masraige but belonged to a branch of the Airgíalla called the Fir Lurg who were in the process of spreading southwards into Fermanagh and Cavan. The barony of Lurg in County Fermanagh was named after them.[1] The Liber Sanctorum says he studied so intensively he lost his sight, earning the nickname Dallán ("little blind one").[2] The preface to the Amra also says he was chief poet (ollamh) of Ireland as well as a scholar of Latin scriptural learning.[1][3] Geoffrey Keating's History of Ireland states that Dallan helped to reform the Bardic Order at the Convention of Drumceat. He is best known for eulogies attributed to him, on the subject of contemporaneous Irish saints, namely the Amra Choluim Chille on St. Columba, Amra Senain on St. Senan, and Amra Connaill for St. Connall. The poems, rarely translated, were of such obscure language that subsequent scribes included copious glosses on the poems. The best example is the Amra Choluim Chille, wherein the glosses contain poems in themselves, some of which deal with the Fenian Cycle.[citation needed] He is said to have written the Amra Choluim Chille shortly after the death of Colm Cille in 597, because Colm Cille had successfully saved the poets from expulsion from Ireland at the assembly of Druim Cett in 575. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 9:16 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 261 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Sandy Paterson) 2. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Iain Kennedy) 3. Why is it wrong to assume a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now? (Iain Kennedy) 4. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Sandy Paterson) 5. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Iain Kennedy) 6. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 (Robert Reid) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100 From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000701cc5fdf$273014f0$75903ed0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bernard Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of McHarg/Mac Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype? I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with matches at DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin though. I think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? Jerry, Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, however I hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. Brynes?s argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that closeness to Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:04:46 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W11C1219C593298547F7E76A92C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill...?it is the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of Ulster.' I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere > which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:36:36 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: [R-M222] Why is it wrong to assume a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W355E544EF69A787C2CC48A92C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Last night I was reading the DNA articles and discussions on the eupedia site. One interesting post was this one where it was argued that not only should we not use modern distribution to determine the origin of a haplogroup (commonly accepted, see origins of R1b) but neither should we use STR diversity, which I have argued for before on this list. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25644-Why-it-is-wrong-to-assume- that-a-haplogroup-originated-where-it-is-most-frequent-now I don't know who the poster is or whether he has any relevant qualifications. He gives the age of M222 as 3000ybp but doesn't cite a reference or any data to back this up. Some of the maps and tables are excellent although they are high level compared with M222. I was however interested to see that it makes Wales to have a higher R1b concentration than either Ireland or Scotland, albeit based on rather thin data. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml Main portal page is http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/ Iain ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:41:10 +0100 From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000001cc5ff7$398107a0$ac8316e0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Iain Do you know much about Slaine of Brega? Perhaps a wild guess, but how about Donnshleibhe/Slaine/Slavens? Adamnan also interests me. The Cain of Adomnain was also known as the Law of Adomnan (Oxford DNB). Could some Cains or variants have derived their surname from the Cain of Adomnain? Could the Lag in Lagman come from the same source? DYS446=15 is present in Lamont, Cain variants and Slavens. The M222 modal value is 13. Speculative, I know, but if the DNA ties in with the onomastics, there may be something in it. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: 21 August 2011 11:05 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill...?it is the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of Ulster.' I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere > which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:08:29 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W1014A728ED9929FD287499A92C0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sandy, I wouldn't want to comment from a linguistic point of view. Aed Slaine is mentioned in several places by Hughes whose interest was in locating where various sources were written and what political motives lay behind their entries.? 'the early annals were interested in the Ui Neill overlords, but they were especially interested in the descendants of Aed Slaine. They were part of the southern Ui Neill, some of them were among the overlords, but some were minor kings of Brega, the area which is now Co. Louth and the east of Meath'. The other place he is discussed is in the section on Muirchu's Life of St Patrick which survives in a transcription in the Book of Armagh but was actually written a century earlier, c. 700-ish. This source doesn't seem to have such a good reputation for accuracy as Adomnan (and strictly speaking isn't an original anyway). 'One, at least, of Muirchu's aims was to attach Armagh to the Ui Neill, who were now clearly in the ascendant... the future of Armagh had to lie with the Ui Neill, as Muirchu's Life recognised. The Ui Neill overlords between 658 and 695 were all Brega kings, descendants of Aed Slaine, and it is interesting that the annals are concerned with that area, where Armagh later had her own steward. The written sources for the Ui Neill annal entries may go back to this period in the later seventh century when Armagh was accumulating material to support her own claims and was anxious to link herself with Ui Neill power'. Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:41:10 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > Iain > > Do you know much about Slaine of Brega? > > Perhaps a wild guess, but how about > > Donnshleibhe/Slaine/Slavens? > > Adamnan also interests me. The Cain of Adomnain was also known as the > Law of Adomnan (Oxford DNB). Could some Cains or variants have derived > their surname from the Cain of Adomnain? Could the Lag in Lagman come > from the same source? DYS446=15 is present in Lamont, Cain variants > and Slavens. The > M222 modal value is 13. Speculative, I know, but if the DNA ties in > with the onomastics, there may be something in it. > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy > Sent: 21 August 2011 11:05 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify > all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, > particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. > 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' > and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of > the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is > purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the > Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site > and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: > 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a > surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal > Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of > whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son > Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also > overlord of the Ui Neill... it is the Life, not the annals, which > tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a > major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of Ulster.' > I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not > even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? > > Iain > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? > > > > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available > > somewhere which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:15:46 -0400 From: "Robert Reid" <rreid002@insight.rr.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000001cc6004$7081eb40$5185c1c0$@insight.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please let me state, I am no expert on this but was probably written before 596 since that was the date Aed died, King of Cenel Conaill. Aed that commissioned the work, Amrae Coluim Cille, being his relative. You wanted reference to Conall Gulban being the son of Niall. We all know it can't be Conal Cremthanne as he is of the Southern Ui Neill. As we know, Colum Cille died ~ 593 AD. Aed was the great-grandson of Fergus and Colum Cille was the grandson of Fergus. As the poem relates, Fergus was the son of Conall, son of Neill. This can be googled at http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/amra_columcille.htmlhttp://www.maryjones.us/c texts/amra_columcille.html This is one of the earliest sources (not written 8th-10th centuries) of Colum Cille's genealogy at such an early date. Most experts don't know what to do with it but think its likely around 600 AD before Aed's death if he so commissioned it. Amra Of St Columba PREFACE TO THE AMRA OF ST. COLUMBA. The place for the Amra usque in finein, i.e. the bit of land that is between Fene in UI Tigernan in Meath up to Dun na n-Airbed in the district of Masraige eastward of Irarus, or of Chechtraige Slecht from Breifne of Connaught; i.e. for Dallan. [For] Colum Cille son of Feidlimid, son of Fergus, son of Conall, son of Neill, Dallan wrote this. Now this is the third cause for which Colum Cille came, viz. a refusal that Ireland's kings around Aed mac Ainmerech put on Ireland's poets; for it was owing to the multitude of the poets and to their burdensomeness that Ireland's men were not able to find out what to do with them; for the person who was satirised there, if he did not immediately die, there used to grow poisonous ulcers upon him, till he was conspicuous to everybody, and till there was deformity upon him always; but upon the poet himself grew the ulcers, and he used to die immediately, if it was without fault that he satirised. Now the poets were at Ibar of Cinntracht in the territory of Ulster, for Ulster's king gave them 'coigny' three years, or (may be) one whole year there. And it was then they set themselves to invent stories, but they were wholly unable (to do it) as they used to tell them; but to impose them on the wholly rude race among whom they were, ready-tongued poets concocted the lying fables. Well, a message came from Ireland's poets to Colum Cille, to the effect that it was to them he should come before he went to Druim Cetta, the place where the kings were who refused them. And so they invoked God's name upon the head of Colum Cille and of the Christian faith ... was brought under his protection to Druim Cetta. There came afterwards Colum Cille as he came from his boat, seven twenties his number (of followers), ut poeta dixit: Forty priests his number, twenty bishops lofty power at the psalm-singing without dispute, fifty deacons, thirty students. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 3:00 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Another theory on Connachta origins (Yair Davidiy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:28:22 +0200 From: Yair Davidiy <britam@netvision.net.il> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Another theory on Connachta origins To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <0LQ900EMGLZCEA00@mxout2.netvision.net.il> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed At 04:56 AM 8/21/2011, you wrote: > > >In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > >I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the >Belgae tribes of the Rhine... M222 is present on the Continent, especially in the west. Some of it may originate form Irish immigrants many of whom did go to Europe. Others are probably local. Has anybody done any work on this?? Do the family names say anything? Are there local concentrations?? Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 ****************************************** ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 261 ******************************************