The Expansion of NWIM?? Quotation: From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [DNA] Milesians rather than The People of the Lightning:FirBolg and Bel... Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:31:02 EDT http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-06/1181784662 # According to O'Rahilly, the Ui Neill or descendants of Conn (northern goidels) weren't even in Ulster until after or during the death of Nial 'of the NIne Hostages.' (c. 400 to 450 AD). Then mythology tells us the three sons of Nial pushed into the north of Ireland and for the first time established kingdoms in the NW (Donegal, Tryone). Other historians disagree with O'Rahilly on this point, saying they came instead from Connacht and not the midlands. But most seem to accept the basic premise that the Ui Neill first settled in the NW after the death of Nial. # Where did the NWIM originate? Conventional DNA sources (despite recent denials and attempted revisions) are consistent with them all coming from Neill or his brothers. Some seem to suggest that it originated long beforehand but due to a fluke of history became somehow telescoped into Neill and his kin before expanding again. The presence in Lowland Scotland and along the Atlantic coast of Continental Europe may be explained by Irish emigrants or possibly by a pre-Neill origin in Europe. Some of the suggestions are interesting. e.g. The Venicnii and Venicones http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm Venicones http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/Venicones.htm These ideas however seem to lack DNA evidence to substantiate them. In Ireland it all seems to emanate from Neill and his family. Outside of Ireland we do not know but even there Neill and his family are still strong candidates. Lately there have been claims that the NWIM is not really as localized on descendants of the Connachta and Neil as at first suggested. If such as is the case then there should be articles about it. These should succinctly summarize the alternate cases with a few detailed examples. Failing this, the candidature of the Connachta and Neil as being the primary candidates of origin retains its primacy. Learned innuendos of dissent are not sufficient. Based on DNA findings concerning the NWIM we may say that, descendants of the Connachta and Neil show (in Ireland) a very strong vigorous expansion in an historically short time during which no other lineage fared so well. The "official" explanation seems to be that they were the chieftains etc and therefore they got more of the women and means of survival. For example the Abstract of the paper by McEvoy et al says: # The fact that about one in five males sampled in northwestern Ireland is likely a patrilineal descendent of a single early medieval ancestor is a powerful illustration of the potential link between prolificacy and power and of how Y-chromosome phylogeography can be influenced by social selection. # See: Laoise T. Moore,1,* Brian McEvoy,1,* Eleanor Cape,1 Katharine Simms,2 and Daniel G. Bradley1 A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland 1 Smurfit Institute of Genetics and 2School of Histories and Humanities, Trinity College, Dublin Am. J. Hum. Genet., 78:334-338, 2006 http://www.dnaancestryproject.com/ydna_intro_famous.php?id=niall In a previous posting I proposed that other factors may also have been at play. These could have included greater fertility, robustness, a higher male to female offspring ratio, etc. This suggestion was apparently considered potentially offensive or at the least farfetched by some. Billy Howard launched a pseudo-academic attack on my august self and off-the-list also sent me an anti-Israeli article he had authored to boot. [Who knows where academic indignation will go next?] I also received a letter off-the-list from a lady with interesting observations from her own family. She apparently wishes to remain anonymous but she offered, # my perspective simply based on my own M222 family with a firm ancestral trail back to about 1725 with the approximate birth of my immigrants to this country [i.e. the USA]. # # In my particular lineage every family suffered at least one or two children's deaths for one reason or another -- some died of illness too young and weak to fight it off the illness that took them; some died of accidents such as being kicked by a horse. # There was, however about an equal mix of issued males and females in these families on average. # My group, however were somewhat the exception. Those of related families did not seem to fair as well on average -- some did and many others did not. # In large part, besides being possibly genetically well endowed, I credit the survival of issued children to the skills of the mothers who were equally as sturdy and very attentive. Additionally, being farmers they generally had enough to eat. They were hard working, God loving people who lived their lives close to the earth quietly. # Most of the men were monogamous and married one time only; many of them out-lived their wives probably due to the fact that some of these women bore upwards of 8 -- 13 or more children and child bearing takes its toll upon women. Anyway based on the reactions received on-list we must either: (1) accept the socially higher status once enjoyed by some of the descendants of Neill and company as an explanation for their demographic success rate. OR (2) Consider it an act of Divine Providence under a different name since we cannot nowadays say such things in respectable company. We must not look for other factors since this would be considered unscientific? When we did actually dare to venture beyond the above two parameters we were actually compared to the persecutors of Copernicus? Based on what has transpired up to now we would not be surprised to be also called anti-Polish! What do the Connachta have to do with Warsaw?