In a message dated 10/11/2011 1:03:36 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: Maybe you can answer this then, here are some people from the M222 group, which were SNP tested and came up negative for M222 (or M222-), their haplogroup is marked in GREEN: 25105 McLaughlin R1b1 27071 McCord R1b1 14740 Cowen R1b1 32498 Doherty R1b1 I think you're misinterpreting that. There's a whole group of samples that are listed as P25+. (9). More than you show here. I don't know how this group came by this SNP result. It may have been done automatically for them by FTDNA in the early days. None of them are M222- since that SNP was not tested for. It would be listed if it had been. P25 is upstream from M269 so testing for that SNP alone makes little sense today with L21 and M222. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I will remind the list that David Wilson, the first M222 tested and the man who discovered the clade, was of the opinion that M222 was so easily recognizable by STRs alone that no SNP test was necessary for most unambiguous samples.. That is why he instituted a policy of not requiring SNP tests when he founded the M222 project. In fact on several occasions he opined that M222 could be identified with near certainty on the basis of the first twelve markers alone. His criterion was two of three modal markers in the first twelve was generally sufficient. David is semi-retired now and not present to counter the arguments being presented on this list. If he were I think he would support Bill's quacks like a duck argument. There are a few genuine cases of STRs that mimic M222 so closely one can hardly tell the difference. These have been discussed multiple times on the list. David Wilson was puzzled by them too which is why he mostly grouped them in a pre-M222 category. One is a Hannan ; another a Wilson. And a Clark. I'm seeing a lot of new results lately in which only M222 is tested. Does anyone have an idea of what that costs? I've never bothered to get SNP tested myself but I might if the price is right. From my perspective it would be a waste of time and money though. Does anyone seriously think my kit is not M222? (75919). I'm in a group at the McLaughlin DNA project with close matches to several other McLaughlins who have been SNP tested. That was the criterion recommended by all the experts including John McEwan for DNA surname projects. Testing all, they said, was unnecessary. On another topic we've had two M222 results forever from the early phase of the Walk on the Y testing. One was a McGonagle (different spelling). Another a Mannion. Both appear to be Irish from the Cenel Conaill in Donegal and Connachta. I recently heard from the McNeely who reported he just had the test done and no new SNPs were found. That seems likely to be another Connachta surname. According to MacLysyght is UI Maine but descended from the Soghan or Sodhan, commonly described as a pre-goidelic (or Gaelic) race, whatever that might mean. John