Mr. Yair Davidiy is wrong in several of the following ways: 1) The mutation we have been using is the average rate over one locus per generation. It is the Chandler rate and appears in his paper at: http://www.jogg.info/22/Chandler.pdf. The RCC time scale we used in our M222 paper has been calibrated with over 100 pedigrees and the phylogenetic tree from which the date of origin of the M222 SNP was derived uses the RCC time scale. It is consistent with, but does not depend on, the Chandler rate. Naill, if he even lived, MAY have carried the SNP but we don't know with any certainty that he lived OR carried the SNP. I won't get into any argument about what mutation rate should be used in other related calculations and I note that Mr. Davidiy did not quote the number he thinks is correct, nor what that number should be. We stand by our date of 1680 BC +/- 300 years SD. 2) I shall leave it to others if they wish to argue about whether a carrier of the M222 SNP is in any way superior (as Mr. Davidiy maintains) to anyone who does not carry the SNP. The M222 has not been around long enough to make any conclusions as to its ability to survive better than other SNPs. Right now, such arguments belong in the pigeonhole of belief; it is not science. 3) One cannot conclude, as Mr. Davidiy apparently does, that "If something expands from almost zero to ca. 12% of the population and ca. 3 million (or more people) in ca. 1600 years and it is the ONLY known Mode in the world that does so, then I would say that is exceptional." We do not know the number of people who carry the M222 SNP today. Mr. Davidiy's 1600 years is wrong; it is more like 3600 years. The numbers of 12% and 3 million people are guesses based on sets of assumptions that are not apparent. I do not remember seeing any calculation where its details, including its assumptions, have been made. In the absence of such evidence, the M222 SNP and its growth rate appears not to be exceptional at all. 4) The origin of R1b was 22,000 years ago -- plenty of time to be in Europe by 1680 BC. See: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#.3D_R1b1a2a1a1b4b_.28R-M222.29_.3D R1b was well-established in Europe by 1680 BC. Mr. Davidiy's contention that "the experts" say that there was no know R1b of ANY KIND in Europe before ca. 1000 BCE is not supported by scientific fact; it appears to be a belief. - Bye from Bill Howard