At 06:50 PM 10/10/2011, you wrote: >Mr. Yair Davidiy is wrong in several of the following ways: > >1) The mutation we have been using is the average rate over one >locus per generation. It is the Chandler rate and appears in his >paper at: http://www.jogg.info/22/Chandler.pdf. from 2006 not 2011. >The RCC time scale we used in our M222 paper has been calibrated >with over 100 pedigrees and the phylogenetic tree from which the >date of origin of the M222 SNP was derived uses the RCC time scale. >It is consistent with, but does not depend on, the Chandler rate. >Naill, if he even lived, MAY have carried the SNP but we don't know >with any certainty that he lived OR carried the SNP. >I won't get into any argument about what mutation rate should be >used in other related calculations and I note that Mr. Davidiy did >not quote the number he thinks is correct, You did not read what was posed previously: See: Re: [R-M222] Summary of a distracting series Subject: [R-M222] Brief ??? on the "Paper" Recent research however indicates that the rate is 4 per 13 generations which is 1 .25 per 3 generations and not one per 5.5 [1]http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2009/08/human-y-chromosome-mutation-rates.ht ml [2] http://www.physorg.com/news170595325.html This cuts the estimated time in half giving us ca. 0 to 500 CE. This fits in with the time of Neil. >3) One cannot conclude, as Mr. Davidiy apparently does, that "If >something expands from almost zero to ca. 12% of the population and >ca. 3 million (or more people) in ca. 1600 years and it is the ONLY >known Mode in the world that does so, then I would say that is exceptional." >We do not know the number of people who carry the M222 SNP today. >Mr. Davidiy's 1600 years is wrong; it is more like 3600 years. The >numbers of 12% and 3 million people are guesses based on sets of >assumptions that are not apparent. I do not remember seeing any >calculation where its details, including its assumptions, have been made. Again you did not read what was posted previously with the sources. The same thing and the same sources have been posted to this list by others on numerous occasions. Tests were made and statistical extrapolations derived. You evidently disagree with the conclusions. That does not make your disagreement the more valid alternative. > In the absence of such evidence, the M222 SNP and its growth rate > appears not to be exceptional at all. > >4) The origin of R1b was 22,000 years ago -- plenty of time to be in >Europe by 1680 BC. See: >http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml >See also: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#.3D_R1b1a2a1a1b4b_.28R-M222.29_.3D These figures refer to the theoretical time of origin of R1b. There is no proof. They also do not necessarily refer to Europe. R1b is also found amongst the Kurds, in Turkey, Syria, and Russia where in some groups (e.g. Bashkirs) it reaches more than 70%. There are no archaeological findings of R1b in Europe that may definitely be dated to pre-1000 BCE. There is one cave in Bavaria that has a minority sample that has been tentatively dated to a bit before 1000 BCE but even this is subject to dispute. We also posted sources on this issue in a previous post. See: We Are Not Our Ancestors: Evidence for Discontinuity between Prehistoric and Modern Europeans Ellen Levy-Coffman [2] http://www.slideshare.net/Pammy98/we-are-not-our-ancestors-evidence-for-discontinuity-between Facial Skeletons Show that Modern Europeans NOT Descended from Stone or Bronze Age Europe! Noriko Seguchi, Conrad B. Quintyn , Sherry C. Fox , A. Russell Nelson , Sotiris K. Manolis , and Pan Qifeng [3] http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_1.htm R1b1b2 in Europe dating rethink [4 ]http://dna-forums.org/index.php/blog/2/entry-164-r1b1b2-in-europe-dating-rethink/Wave-of-Advance Models of the Diffusion of the Y Chromosome Haplogroup R1b1b2 in Europe http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021592 Per Sjodin1*, Olivier Francois2 1 Department of Evolutionary Biology, Evolutionary Biology Centre, Uppsala University, Norbyvagen, Uppsala, Sweden, 2 University Joseph Fourier Grenoble, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, TIMC-IMAG UMR 5525, Mathematical and Computational Biology, Grenoble, France >R1b was well-established in Europe by 1680 BC. >Mr. Davidiy's contention that "the experts" say that there was no >know R1b of ANY KIND in Europe before ca. 1000 BCE is not supported >by scientific fact; it appears to be a belief. > >- Bye from Bill Howard

To Mr. Davidiy, I stand by what I have written and I will let the readers decide who to believe. I shall not respond further to you. Good luck in trying to prove that you can find the Lost Tribes of Israel. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x4AuGYuZHw]. Your faith seems to far exceed your science. - Bye from Bill Howard