Hi Sandy, I've had a couple years of Latin. For one thing, Latin never declines at the start of a word, like Gaelic, but always at the end. The same holds true for Latinate languages like Italian, French, Spanish, etc. Latin has cases, and words are declined at the end. the i's at the end of many of the names is the genitive case. It also has male, female, and neutral genders and several families of words that are declined differently. Add in number (single or plural) So one ends up with a bewildering number of endings based on number, gender, case, and the family of the noun, verb, etc. Adjectives 'agree' or take the case of the noun they modify. Classical Latin was very complicated. I have simplified. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin It is simplified in the Vulgate and other types of spoken Latin used by both Romans and subject peoples, none of whom studied Latin formally. Of course clerks would have had some formal education, but with the fall of the Roman Empire, things got simpler. Usually it's not complicated to decipher Latin terminology in regards to names because they are usually genitive case ('of' some place or other). Another different that evolved in Scots and English was a difference between "OF" and "IN". "In" indicates the person lived there. "Of" indicates it was his or her seat -- ownership (such as it was under medieval law). Knowing this one can, for example, interpret Scots parish records with greater expertise. A man 'in' a village was a villager. A man identified as "of" a village or place owned it. He was the lord. I think the 'de' below is 'of', and probably derived from Norman usuage. Before the English used English they used Norman French, and the 'de'. The Scots kings invited a lot of Norman knights to Scotland to infeudate Scotland. Before that the Scots clans held land by right of conquest or custom, much as Indians and the Irish held their land. The king needed a way to make his subjects loyal to him. This is actually one of the features of feudalism, that allowed Europe to crawl out of the dark ages and into a situation where it was possible to create large, stable states (excepting in Germany, in western Europe). This was done by force in England (Norman conquest) but the kings of Scotland did not use force (of the same scale as the Normans). They invited into Norman knights and married them off to Scots heiresses, following in the wake of custom that united the Pictish and Scots thrones long before. So many of the 'great' Scots names are actually Norman, and presumedly their Y chromosomes as well. When the king, who according to feudal custom, 'owned' all the land, granted out estates to his loyal knights, they were 'of' the estate, until such time as he took it away. et multis aliia = and many others. Domino = Lord - nominative case. (Domina = female lord) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_declension has more on declension. This is sometimes useful in Scottish genealogy since they continued to use Latin in the courts up into the 1800s. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/LatinNotes.html Sassines (kind of deeds) and Latin (till 1848): http://www.motherhubbardscupboard.net/genclass/205/gen205_6.htm But it isn't so hard to figure out in the material you're dealing with, as long as you remember that there is no declension at the start of the word, as in Gaelic. Over time they evolved standard ways of translating names into Latin but there's no guarantee that every clerk at very time and every place knew how to translate every Gaelic name that someone was using. The Ragman's Roll is often claimed to be the earliest written usage of surnames in Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragman_Rolls It's transcribed in Hanna's "The Scotch Irish" (free at Ancestry and various other places) and here: http://www.rampantscotland.com/ragman/blragman_index.htm So you can see the pattern of transcription, presumedly done by someone who knew Scots Latin of the time. Linda Merle From: "Sandy Paterson" < alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic To: < dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <000001cc1787$ec398c40$c4aca4c0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy

Many thanks Merle I'm sure it is obvious to you that my formal knowledge of languages is very weak. I'm quite good at pattern recognition though (I'm a mathematician), so I'm able to pick up things here and there. I did get as far as working out the difference between 'of' and 'in' and I understood the Domino although I don't know what nominative is. I also managed to guess that 'de' means 'of' as in de Ergadia, and I guessed it was Norman/French. I managed the 'and many others' and figured out the i, ii meanings. I enjoyed the perspective you gave to the feudal system. It's the meaning of the 'o', the last letter of the first word strings of names that seems important here, and I'm not sure whether you agree or disagree with my thinking here. I think Nigello Johannis Cristini Lammanii means that John was the son of Cristin who was the son of Lamman, and that he was from the blood-line of an earlier ancestor name Neil. The two other possibilities are that Neil was son of John who was son of Cristin who was son of Lamman, or That Neil John was the son of Cristin who was the son of Lamman. Can you help here? I'm sure I'll be able to check in at least one case because I have the actual pedigrees for a number of Lamonts. I can check for example whether John, son of Cristin, son of Lamont had a son called Neil. I think I'll be able to find a few checkable examples in Lamont. I should perhaps have checked that long ago, but this way is much more fun. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: 21 May 2011 16:24 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, I've had a couple years of Latin. For one thing, Latin never declines at the start of a word, like Gaelic, but always at the end. The same holds true for Latinate languages like Italian, French, Spanish, etc. Latin has cases, and words are declined at the end. the i's at the end of many of the names is the genitive case. It also has male, female, and neutral genders and several families of words that are declined differently. Add in number (single or plural) So one ends up with a bewildering number of endings based on number, gender, case, and the family of the noun, verb, etc. Adjectives 'agree' or take the case of the noun they modify. Classical Latin was very complicated. I have simplified. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin It is simplified in the Vulgate and other types of spoken Latin used by both Romans and subject peoples, none of whom studied Latin formally. Of course clerks would have had some formal education, but with the fall of the Roman Empire, things got simpler. Usually it's not complicated to decipher Latin terminology in regards to names because they are usually genitive case ('of' some place or other). Another different that evolved in Scots and English was a difference between "OF" and "IN". "In" indicates the person lived there. "Of" indicates it was his or her seat -- ownership (such as it was under medieval law). Knowing this one can, for example, interpret Scots parish records with greater expertise. A man 'in' a village was a villager. A man identified as "of" a village or place owned it. He was the lord. I think the 'de' below is 'of', and probably derived from Norman usuage. Before the English used English they used Norman French, and the 'de'. The Scots kings invited a lot of Norman knights to Scotland to infeudate Scotland. Before that the Scots clans held land by right of conquest or custom, much as Indians and the Irish held their land. The king needed a way to make his subjects loyal to him. This is actually one of the features of feudalism, that allowed Europe to crawl out of the dark ages and into a situation where it was possible to create large, stable sta! tes (excepting in Germany, in western Europe). This was done by force in England (Norman conquest) but the kings of Scotland did not use force (of the same scale as the Normans). They invited into Norman knights and married them off to Scots heiresses, following in the wake of custom that united the Pictish and Scots thrones long before. So many of the 'great' Scots names are actually Norman, and presumedly their Y chromosomes as well. When the king, who according to feudal custom, 'owned' all the land, granted out estates to his loyal knights, they were 'of' the estate, until such time as he took it away. et multis aliia = and many others. Domino = Lord - nominative case. (Domina = female lord) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_declension has more on declension. This is sometimes useful in Scottish genealogy since they continued to use Latin in the courts up into the 1800s. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/LatinNotes.html Sassines (kind of deeds) and Latin (till 1848): http://www.motherhubbardscupboard.net/genclass/205/gen205_6.htm But it isn't so hard to figure out in the material you're dealing with, as long as you remember that there is no declension at the start of the word, as in Gaelic. Over time they evolved standard ways of translating names into Latin but there's no guarantee that every clerk at very time and every place knew how to translate every Gaelic name that someone was using. The Ragman's Roll is often claimed to be the earliest written usage of surnames in Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragman_Rolls It's transcribed in Hanna's "The Scotch Irish" (free at Ancestry and various other places) and here: http://www.rampantscotland.com/ragman/blragman_index.htm So you can see the pattern of transcription, presumedly done by someone who knew Scots Latin of the time. Linda Merle From: "Sandy Paterson" < alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic To: < dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <000001cc1787$ec398c40$c4aca4c0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message