It becomes even more confusing. Consider the words of what I think was a Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makeham song. "There was Johnny MacIldoo and McGee and me and a couple or two or three went on a spree one day We had a bob or two, which we knew how to blew and...(I forget) We visited McCann's, MacLeman's, Dirty Dan's ... then someone called the shop man a liar ... and we all fought and bled... So here we have an Irish song but one using the Scottish pronunciation of McIlDoo. Admittedly the Clancy Brothers lived in Canada, but still. But the Duff I can understand. Take Siobhan. It's pronounced Shivorn. So the 'bh' sounds like a 'v'. So Dubh in Irish Gaelic sounds like a 'v' or perhaps an 'f', whereas in Scotland 'bh' is silent. Dubh becomes Du or Doo. So I can see how Duffy comes about. Yet as far as I know, Duffy is Scots. More confusing is that the 'bh' in Bunnahabhain (of which I part-took in some quantity last evening), is pronounced like a 'v'. It's from Islay, Scotland. So generally, I try to absorb what the scholars say (and Jerry is definitely a scholar, and I mean this in the very best sense of the word), but I think my hair is greyer than his. Paul, on the other hand, probably has a grey hair or two. Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: 16 May 2011 19:59 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe I am intrigued with Paul's comment that dubh is pronounced differently in Ireland and Scotland; I only know the 'doo' version. I have always wondered how it is that this word gave us both Dow and Duff as surnames (especially as I am descended from a Perthshire Dow family myself). I just rechecked my surname atlas and see that both peak in Perthshire. Iain

Hi Sandy, Many thanks, and good catch! I forgot about the doo version. Also, up in Ulster, under Scottish influence as you point out, Dubh is usually pronounced as Doo (with a little w at the end, very hard to hear because stress is usually placed at the beginning of the word unless there's a vowel marked with an accent in a later syllable). As you point out, the mh and bh surrounded or next to a broad vowel (a, o, u) are pronounced in some areas like a w and in other areas like a v. And in some areas, like Vw, (v combined with w), Vwah, a sound we don't have in English. So, as you point out, Si/obha/n can be pronounced as Sheewawn or Sheevawn, and even SheeVwawn. There are also some Duffys in Ireland - O/ Dubhthaigh, usually pronounced as O'Duffhee or O'Doowhee, and maybe even O'DuVwhee with that Vw sound. Good fun! Best, - Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Presswww.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 16, 2011 3:29:38 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe It becomes even more confusing. Consider the words of what I think was a Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makeham song. "There was Johnny MacIldoo and McGee and me and a couple or two or three went on a spree one day We had a bob or two, which we knew how to blew and...(I forget) We visited McCann's, MacLeman's, Dirty Dan's ... then someone called the shop man a liar ... and we all fought and bled... So here we have an Irish song but one using the Scottish pronunciation of McIlDoo. Admittedly the Clancy Brothers lived in Canada, but still. But the Duff I can understand. Take Siobhan. It's pronounced Shivorn. So the 'bh' sounds like a 'v'. So Dubh in Irish Gaelic sounds like a 'v' or perhaps an 'f', whereas in Scotland 'bh' is silent. Dubh becomes Du or Doo. So I can see how Duffy comes about. Yet as far as I know, Duffy is Scots. More confusing is that the 'bh' in Bunnahabhain (of which I part-took in some quantity last evening), is pronounced like a 'v'. It's from Islay, Scotland. So generally, I try to absorb what the scholars say (and Jerry is definitely a scholar, and I mean this in the very best sense of the word), but I think my hair is greyer than his. Paul, on the other hand, probably has a grey hair or two. Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: 16 May 2011 19:59 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe I am intrigued with Paul's comment that dubh is pronounced differently in Ireland and Scotland; I only know the 'doo' version. I have always wondered how it is that this word gave us both Dow and Duff as surnames (especially as I am descended from a Perthshire Dow family myself). I just rechecked my surname atlas and see that both peak in Perthshire. Iain R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message