Hi Sandy, In an American context, "Tory" means a supporter of the king during the American Revolution. The word is originally Gaelic, to/rai/, a pursuer, a hunter, an outlaw, a bandit. It became associated with the Cavaliers during the wars of the 1640s and then with the supporters of James II in the 1680s. So, it took on Royalist overtones. In opposition were the Whigs. Here in America, the Tories supported the King while the American revolutionaries did not, and so the revolutionaries were often called Whigs. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 3:23:20 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Thanks Jerry This is all fascinating to me. [But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders.] I've seen the word 'Tories' used in an historical context before but when I tried to find it again in cyberspace, I couldn't. Can you elaborate on who they were or on what the word originally meant? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 19:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Hi Sandy, One of the things underlined by most modern Scottish, Manx, and Irish scholars is that the Gaelic world in this period (up to the 17th-18th Century) was one cultural entity. Not one political entity, but one cultural entity. One facet of that culture was the written language used by the Gaelic learned classes including the scribes. It was basically the same. The aos da/na (people of arts - including not just scribes but also experts in Gaelic law, history, genealogy, praise poetry, epic saga, prophecy, etc.) were trained in rigorous da/mhscoileanna ('schools of good company'), usually called 'bardic schools' in English, which used the same basic curriculum. The aos da/na circulated amongst those schools in Ireland, Scotland, and Man in order to increase their learning. Irish scholars took refuge in Scotland after 1603, 1641, and 1691. The last of the Irish da/mhscoileanna relocated to Man after 1691. When I look at the 15th century Scottish manuscript John showed us this week, it's the same Gaelic used in Ireland in that period. That single cultural identity was broken by the combination of the destruction of the Gaelic order in Ireland in 1691, imposition of English rule on Man, and the destruction of the Gaelic order in Scotland in 1746. The written dialects (as diversions from the single learned standard) rose after that. But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders. I have a copy of the Sailm Dhaibhidh ('Psalms of David') in front of me as I write this. It was printed in Edinburgh in 1806 in the Scottish Gaelic of that time. It's very different from today's Scottish Gaelic. With very few exceptions, it's exactly the same as the 17th century Irish of Seathru/n Ce/itinn (called 'Geoffrey Keating' in English), the father of Modern Irish prose. Almost exactly the same, about 350 years after the manuscript John showed us. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 1:56:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Would I be correct in saying that you've described what happened in Ireland? We're talking here about a document thought to have been produced in Scotland around 1450. No doubt the Scottish scribes would have been influenced by developments in Ireland through continual migration, but do you suppose Gaelic (and Nodanna) could have developed a little differently over here? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 18:15 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, You're very welcome. Sandy wrote: "Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.?" No. Instead, these are 2 different words with different origins and different meanings which were not used for each other, but just happen to look something alike. Another example of similar-looking words. While trying to look up 'nodanna' on the internet this morning, I found a Sri Lankan comedy sketch called Api Nodanna. Almost the same in spelling, but no relation and no common meaning and no common use whatsoever. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 12:44:23 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Jerry Can we step back a little? 'na' means 'of' in Gaelic. Somerled is usually referred to as Donal(d), Lord of the Isles. Write down a d but with the top part bent facing left, almost horizontally. Write down an 'o' with a tilde on top Leave a space Write down 'na' Leave a space Write down 'il' You should have do na il but with changes as indicated. The tilde means you must place an 'm' after the 'o' so we now have dom na il which contracts to domnail Surely that has to be nodanna for Lord of the Isles? Domnail/Donald, Lord of the isles? il as in il da sol Used as in Eureka, I've found it Greek, then English Gaelic (albeit nodanna), then English Co-incidence? I doubt it. I think the scholars need to revise their thinking. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 21:24 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Hi Sandy, In an American context, "Tory" means a supporter of the king during the American Revolution. The word is originally Gaelic, to/rai/, a pursuer, a hunter, an outlaw, a bandit. It became associated with the Cavaliers during the wars of the 1640s and then with the supporters of James II in the 1680s. So, it took on Royalist overtones. In opposition were the Whigs. Here in America, the Tories supported the King while the American revolutionaries did not, and so the revolutionaries were often called Whigs. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 3:23:20 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Thanks Jerry This is all fascinating to me. [But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders.] I've seen the word 'Tories' used in an historical context before but when I tried to find it again in cyberspace, I couldn't. Can you elaborate on who they were or on what the word originally meant? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 19:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Hi Sandy, One of the things underlined by most modern Scottish, Manx, and Irish scholars is that the Gaelic world in this period (up to the 17th-18th Century) was one cultural entity. Not one political entity, but one cultural entity. One facet of that culture was the written language used by the Gaelic learned classes including the scribes. It was basically the same. The aos da/na (people of arts - including not just scribes but also experts in Gaelic law, history, genealogy, praise poetry, epic saga, prophecy, etc.) were trained in rigorous da/mhscoileanna ('schools of good company'), usually called 'bardic schools' in English, which used the same basic curriculum. The aos da/na circulated amongst those schools in Ireland, Scotland, and Man in order to increase their learning. Irish scholars took refuge in Scotland after 1603, 1641, and 1691. The last of the Irish da/mhscoileanna relocated to Man after 1691. When I look at the 15th century Scottish manuscript John showed us this week, it's the same Gaelic used in Ireland in that period. That single cultural identity was broken by the combination of the destruction of the Gaelic order in Ireland in 1691, imposition of English rule on Man, and the destruction of the Gaelic order in Scotland in 1746. The written dialects (as diversions from the single learned standard) rose after that. But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders. I have a copy of the Sailm Dhaibhidh ('Psalms of David') in front of me as I write this. It was printed in Edinburgh in 1806 in the Scottish Gaelic of that time. It's very different from today's Scottish Gaelic. With very few exceptions, it's exactly the same as the 17th century Irish of Seathru/n Ce/itinn (called 'Geoffrey Keating' in English), the father of Modern Irish prose. Almost exactly the same, about 350 years after the manuscript John showed us. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 1:56:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Would I be correct in saying that you've described what happened in Ireland? We're talking here about a document thought to have been produced in Scotland around 1450. No doubt the Scottish scribes would have been influenced by developments in Ireland through continual migration, but do you suppose Gaelic (and Nodanna) could have developed a little differently over here? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 18:15 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, You're very welcome. Sandy wrote: "Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.?" No. Instead, these are 2 different words with different origins and different meanings which were not used for each other, but just happen to look something alike. Another example of similar-looking words. While trying to look up 'nodanna' on the internet this morning, I found a Sri Lankan comedy sketch called Api Nodanna. Almost the same in spelling, but no relation and no common meaning and no common use whatsoever. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 12:44:23 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message