In a message dated 5/24/2011 12:15:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: So what you are saying is that pedigrees compiled by scribes were taken very seriously. But you seem to be saying more than that. You seem to be implying that the faking of a pedigree would have been considered a very serious crime indeed. I think that puts a very different light on the way we should consider the new transcript of manuscript 1467, or indeed any pedigree that would have been subject to Brehon law. I don't know about that. Faking pedigrees was almost a cottage industry in Ireland. I can name half a dozen off the top of my head - McMahon of Monaghan, O'Daly, O Cathain of Claire, McCabe, McCoughlan, McDonald of Scotland, the list goes on and on. John

Hi Sandy, As John points out, falsifications did occur. But they were extremely serious. Under Fe/ineachas, a falsely reporting seanchadh (historian / genealogist) or breitheamh ('Brehon' / jurist) would lose his or her honor-price. This was extremely serious. You could kill a person without an honor-price without having to pay the usual e/iric or 'wergild' (to use the German term) in compensation. So it appears that successful falsification must have happened at a very high level, by collusion, with protection. Additional examples, from an earlier period, of whole tribes changing their genealogies: Ui/ Bhriu/in Umhall - These may have originally been a branch of the Partraige. Fir Cheall - The large tribe from whom the O/ Da/laigh (O'Daly') and many other families descend. Despite their Ui/ Ne/ill In Deiscirt pedigree, Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh says that they were actually Fir Bolg. Eoghanachta - Their genealogy goes back to the Early Christian Period and suddenly gets attached to the "Gaeil", who themselves are a genealogical problem. Da/l gCais - Originally the De/is Bec ('Small Vassalry'), they succeeded in changing their name to Da/l gCais ('Share of Cas') and getting their genealogy attached to that of the Eoghanachta even before they replaced the Eoghanachta in the Kingship of Munster. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 5:54:46 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play In a message dated 5/24/2011 12:15:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Sandy wrote: "So what you are saying is that pedigrees compiled by scribes were taken very seriously. But you seem to be saying more than that. You seem to be implying that the faking of a pedigree would have been considered a very serious crime indeed. I think that puts a very different light on the way we should consider the new transcript of manuscript 1467, or indeed any pedigree that would have been subject to Brehon law." John wrote: "I don't know about that. Faking pedigrees was almost a cottage industry in Ireland. I can name half a dozen off the top of my head - McMahon of Monaghan, O'Daly, O Cathain of Claire, McCabe, McCoughlan, McDonald of Scotland, the list goes on and on." John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message