Thanks Jerry I'm not sure I fully understand your answer. I asked whether if A adopted B, whether A out-swore B. I was thinking of adopting you so that you'll stop arguing with me. From your answer though, it seems we would rank equally, so I guess I'll just have to learn how to out-reason you (grin). Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 25 May 2011 18:40 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: Gaelic secular marriage, adoption, enechlann ('face'-value = honor-price) Hi Sandy, Many thanks. Yes - there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). The only possible reduction of right occurred if the child had 1 slave parent and 1 free parent. In that case the child was free but couldn't become a king. According to all the ancient genealogies and stories, I descend from the adaltrach (concubine) Cairinn Casdub. She had Niall Naoighiallach by Eochu Mugmeado/n. Because Niall was the son of 2 free parents, he could be elected king. And he was. There was nothing wrong with being the son or daughter of a adaltrach. There was nothing wrong with being born outside a Church marriage. In Ireland, nearly everybody was until the beginning of the 17th century. I don't know Scottish social history as well, so don't know when the switch to Church-sancitified marriage occurred in the Gaelic areas. By chance, I also descend (according to all the ancient genealogies and stories) from Eochu Mugmeado/n's pri/omhmhuintir (primary wife) Mongfind. Mongfind had Fiachra (my ancestor), Brion, Ailill, and Fergus by Eochu. They had no greater rights than Niall. As you know, Niall's descendants provided most of the High-Kings of Ireland. Fiachra's descendants provided only 2 of the High-Kings of Ireland. Brion 0. Ailill 0. Fergus 0. Adopted children had the full honor price of their adopted parents under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). An adopted individual with a higher honor price could out-swear others with lower honor prices. If my honor price were 8 cumhal, I could outswear 2 others with 4 and 3 cumhal respectively. My 8 would beat their 7 whether or not I was adopted. Le gach dea-ghui/, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 2:28:45 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Hi Jerry I'll try and get it to you later today off-list. On-list though, a question. In a posting perhaps 6 weeks ago, you (at least I think it was you) spoke a little about Brehon law and children born out of wedlock. I gained the impression that there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Brehon law. Is that correct? A more general question : What rights did children born outside formal marriages have? I'm curious, because my great grandfather was so born (albeit under British law). Also, out of interest, if person A adopted person B under Brehon law, would person A out-swear person B? Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 21:11 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. Would love to see that. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 3:02:25 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Jerry, Have you ever come across palimpsests used to convey extra information? I recently came across a birth record dated 1710 that could be an example. If you're interested, I can send you an image of it off-list. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 19:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You put me laughing just now, Sandy. That was a good one. Many thanks. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 1:54:36 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: Gaelic secular marriage, adoption, enechlann ('face'-value = honor-price) Thanks Jerry I'm not sure I fully understand your answer. I asked whether if A adopted B, whether A out-swore B. I was thinking of adopting you so that you'll stop arguing with me. From your answer though, it seems we would rank equally, so I guess I'll just have to learn how to out-reason you (grin). Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 25 May 2011 18:40 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: Gaelic secular marriage, adoption, enechlann ('face'-value = honor-price) Hi Sandy, Many thanks. Yes - there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). The only possible reduction of right occurred if the child had 1 slave parent and 1 free parent. In that case the child was free but couldn't become a king. According to all the ancient genealogies and stories, I descend from the adaltrach (concubine) Cairinn Casdub. She had Niall Naoighiallach by Eochu Mugmeado/n. Because Niall was the son of 2 free parents, he could be elected king. And he was. There was nothing wrong with being the son or daughter of a adaltrach. There was nothing wrong with being born outside a Church marriage. In Ireland, nearly everybody was until the beginning of the 17th century. I don't know Scottish social history as well, so don't know when the switch to Church-sancitified marriage occurred in the Gaelic areas. By chance, I also descend (according to all the ancient genealogies and stories) from Eochu Mugmeado/n's pri/omhmhuintir (primary wife) Mongfind. Mongfind had Fiachra (my ancestor), Brion, Ailill, and Fergus by Eochu. They had no greater rights than Niall. As you know, Niall's descendants provided most of the High-Kings of Ireland. Fiachra's descendants provided only 2 of the High-Kings of Ireland. Brion 0. Ailill 0. Fergus 0. Adopted children had the full honor price of their adopted parents under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). An adopted individual with a higher honor price could out-swear others with lower honor prices. If my honor price were 8 cumhal, I could outswear 2 others with 4 and 3 cumhal respectively. My 8 would beat their 7 whether or not I was adopted. Le gach dea-ghui/, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 2:28:45 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Hi Jerry I'll try and get it to you later today off-list. On-list though, a question. In a posting perhaps 6 weeks ago, you (at least I think it was you) spoke a little about Brehon law and children born out of wedlock. I gained the impression that there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Brehon law. Is that correct? A more general question : What rights did children born outside formal marriages have? I'm curious, because my great grandfather was so born (albeit under British law). Also, out of interest, if person A adopted person B under Brehon law, would person A out-swear person B? Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 21:11 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. Would love to see that. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 3:02:25 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Jerry, Have you ever come across palimpsests used to convey extra information? I recently came across a birth record dated 1710 that could be an example. If you're interested, I can send you an image of it off-list. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 19:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

According to my understanding. R222 is found throughout Ireland at the rate of ca. 12% with concentrations in the north where Sligo and Donegal reach ca. 20%. It is also found in Lowland Scotland at a rate of ca. 8 to 12% but is much rarer in the Highlands. On the other hand Irish genealogies frequently link up with the Scottish Highlands but not the Lowlands. There was a known colonization from Ireland into the Dalriada (Highland) area of Scotland. Since however R222 is found in both Ireland and the Lowlands and spontaneous generation is not accepted some type of ancestral connection must be assumed. The questions I would like to raise may have already been discussed on this list but I do not remember it. Is it possible that R222 came to Ireland from elsewhere via the Scottish Lowlands? If the relative high level of R222 in the Lowlands is considered to have originated from Ireland does any historical explanation exist? When did it take place? Yair Davidiy, Jerusalem, Israel.