Jerry, Great post! I've pointed this out numerous times on the R-L21 list, only to have people declare that it would be nonsense to have a lot of descendants of religious figures. I'd reckon it would be exactly the opposite, in that clerical types most likely had more descendants than peasant farmers. This is relevant to genealogy, as we have such figures as Saint Fergal (aka St Vergilius of Salzburg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergilius_of_Salzburg ) who are descendants of the Ui Neill, who was abbot at Aghaboe in Co Laois, and later was famous in the Holy Roman Empire. So finding some R-L21 M222+ in Salzburg, Austria and in the province of Carinthia - on todays Austria/Slovenia border, should be expected!!! BTW, don't forget the name: McAnespie = Mac an Aspaig = the Bishops's son Gillespie = Servant or follower of a Bishop = usually a descendant of said Bishop. Cheers, Paul On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:06 PM, <jerrykelly@att.net> wrote: > A chairde / Friends, > > As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland > and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. > > I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many > monks > had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th > Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to > 1 > wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical > tradition. > > Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: > > > > There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many > sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in > plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: > Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) > > > This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, > including: > > MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest > MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in > English) > MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot > > Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some > of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these > institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership > was > by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true > family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). > Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong > and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. > > Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and > Bishop > of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm > Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, > electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill > of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy > creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. > > Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close > relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up > until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses > were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many > of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became > comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. > > I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, > and > nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in > 1603. > At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all > properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were > escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate > heir. > > Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > Best, > Jerry > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Many thanks, Paul. Very helpful. Also managed to find some good references in the last hour or so: According to the 9th Century Catalogue of the Saints of Ireland, the "most holy" Irish saints were the 350 non-celibate bishops who were the immediate successors of Patrick. [1] The excuse used by the Cambro-Normans for their 12th Century invasion was to bring Ireland back into line with the practices of the Roman Catholic Church. But, "in the Gaelic and Gaelicized area the monasteries had by 1400 already ceased to live a conventual life according to their rules and were assuming a form not unlike that of the Irish ecclesiastical establishments before the twelfth-century reforms. The abbots and their monks, like the secular clergy, abandoned all pretense of celibacy and openly married." [2] ________________________________ [1] McNeill, John T. The Celtic Churches - A History, A.D. 200 to 1200. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1974. p. 72 [2] Nicholls, Kenneth. Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland in the Middle Ages. Gill History of Ireland Volume 4. Dublin: Gill and MacMillan, 1972. p. 107 Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Presswww.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Paul Conroy <pconroy63@gmail.com> To: jerrykelly@att.net; dna-r1b1c7 <DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 2:12:46 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs Jerry, Great post! I've pointed this out numerous times on the R-L21 list, only to have people declare that it would be nonsense to have a lot of descendants of religious figures. I'd reckon it would be exactly the opposite, in that clerical types most likely had more descendants than peasant farmers. This is relevant to genealogy, as we have such figures as Saint Fergal (aka St Vergilius of Salzburg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergilius_of_Salzburg ) who are descendants of the Ui Neill, who was abbot at Aghaboe in Co Laois, and later was famous in the Holy Roman Empire. So finding some R-L21 M222+ in Salzburg, Austria and in the province of Carinthia - on todays Austria/Slovenia border, should be expected!!! BTW, don't forget the name: McAnespie = Mac an Aspaig = the Bishops's son Gillespie = Servant or follower of a Bishop = usually a descendant of said Bishop. Cheers, Paul On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:06 PM, <jerrykelly@att.net> wrote: A chairde / Friends, > >As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland >and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. > >I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many monks >had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th >Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to 1 >wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical >tradition. > >Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: > > > >There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many >sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in >plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: >Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) > > >This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, including: > >MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest >MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in >English) >MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot > >Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some >of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these >institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership was >by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true >family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). >Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong >and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. > >Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and Bishop >of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm >Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, >electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill >of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy >creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. > >Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close >relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up >until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses >were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many >of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became >comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. > >I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, and >nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in 1603. >At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all >properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were >escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate >heir. > >Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > >Best, >Jerry > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > >http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message >