I don't follow your reasoning. I stated facts, and asked a question. The facts I stated were [Nigellus means blackish in late latin.] I can give you my reference if you want it. [There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus.] The question was prefaced by [It's so persistent that I have to ask the question :] The question was : [Can Y-DNA identify ethnicity?] I can't go by facts? I can't ask a question? You said [[You can't go by that. Nigellus was used as the Latinized version of the Gaelic Neill or Niall. Or perhaps even the Scandinavian Njal.]] Can you give me a reference of Nigellus being so used? I don't dispute what you say, I just want to check my own searches. And I repeat my question : Can Y-DNA be used to check ethnicity? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 21:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nigello In a message dated 5/16/2011 3:56:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Nigellus means blackish in late latin. There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus. It's so persistent that I have to ask the question : Can Y-DNA identify ethnicity? You can't go by that. Nigellus was used as the Latinized version of the Gaelic Neill or Niall. Or perhaps even the Scandinavian Njal. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 16 May 2011 17:55, Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > > I can give you my reference if you want it. > > [There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and > naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a > 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus.] > My grandfather (from Wester Ross) was called Iain Dubh merely because he had black hair. Taking this use of "dubh" as a suggestion of African origin is an unfounded generalization. [snip] > And I repeat my question : Can Y-DNA be used to check ethnicity? > Your question confuses me; I think we all understand well that Y-DNA is only the male line. There are a number of Y haplogroups (e.g. A, B, R-V88) which are associated with sub-Saharan Africa. If you tested positive for one of those you could presume you had a male-line African ancestor, but that would be only one tiny piece of your heritage. Similarly, Professor Henry Louis Gates is an African-American who is M222+ (or at least a match for North-West Irish according to his STRs) because he had an Irishman as a male-line ancestor. If you defined ethnicity by Y-DNA he would be solely Irish, which is a ethnic characterization I don't believe he would agree with. In short, no, Y-DNA alone cannot be used either to establish or falsify claims of ethnicity. Steve

Thanks Steve. The question arises due to a lack of knowledge about DNA on my part. One thing I haven't mentioned is that in the family line I'm working on, one of the males married a female who bore the name Effrik in one document. In another document, the same person is called Afrika. This was a good few hundred years later than the time of Neil or Nigello the Abbot, but it's still (to me) quite interesting. All I'm really trying to find out is whether there is a way of detecting ethnicity, and if so, what kind of test should I have? Mitochondrial? Autosomal? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Forrest Sent: 16 May 2011 23:12 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nigello On 16 May 2011 17:55, Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > > I can give you my reference if you want it. > > [There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and > naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a > 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus.] > My grandfather (from Wester Ross) was called Iain Dubh merely because he had black hair. Taking this use of "dubh" as a suggestion of African origin is an unfounded generalization. [snip] > And I repeat my question : Can Y-DNA be used to check ethnicity? > Your question confuses me; I think we all understand well that Y-DNA is only the male line. There are a number of Y haplogroups (e.g. A, B, R-V88) which are associated with sub-Saharan Africa. If you tested positive for one of those you could presume you had a male-line African ancestor, but that would be only one tiny piece of your heritage. Similarly, Professor Henry Louis Gates is an African-American who is M222+ (or at least a match for North-West Irish according to his STRs) because he had an Irishman as a male-line ancestor. If you defined ethnicity by Y-DNA he would be solely Irish, which is a ethnic characterization I don't believe he would agree with. In short, no, Y-DNA alone cannot be used either to establish or falsify claims of ethnicity. Steve R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes. Argyll retour #14 Oct. 21 1613 Hector McNeill, haeres Nigelli McNeill de Thaynis, patris, in 20 solidatis terrarum antiqui extentus nuncupatis insula de Gyghay, cum decimis, in vicecomitatu de Tarbert. GD437/17 (MacNeill of Taynish and Campbell of Danna Titles) 1 Nov 1613 Precept of Clare Constat by Archibald Earl of Argyll Lord Campbell, Lorne and Kyntyre, as superior, directed to John McDougall of Raghray as his bailie to infeft Hector Mcneill as heir to his deceased father Neil Makneill of Thaynis, in the 2 merkland of [snip] ... in the Lordship of Ros Knapdall and sheriffdom of Tarbart. Iain > Can you give me a reference of Nigellus being so used? I don't dispute what > you say, I just want to check my own searches. >