[So "Nial guirm" above is probably best translated as Swarthy Neill.] Thanks Paul. His son is given as Gille Dubh, which seems to fit. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 16 May 2011 16:28 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Dating the Lamont Pedigree Sandy, You said: > Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. > It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it > of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names > between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by > the > Lamonts. In Gaelic, there are a number of words indicating darkness, as follows: Dun = Brown - pronounced DUN - usually referring to hair - found in Duncan aka Dun Ceann, brown head Dubh = Black - Pronounced DUV in Ireland and DU in Scotland, usually referring to hair - found in Dougall aka Dubh Gall, or Black Foreigner Gorm = Blue - pronounced GURM - usually referring to dark, sallow or swarthy skin, NOT hair - found in Fir Gorm aka Black Men (note Gaelic Fir is a cognate of Latin Vir = men) So "Nial guirm" above is probably best translated as Swarthy Neill. Cheers, Paul On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 4:04 AM, Sandy Paterson < equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > I made it 14 generations between Laumon and the black-haired Neil, which > would suggest that this Neil lived around 820 AD. I'll check. My problem > though is that I cannot find an Abbot of Iona by the name of Neil 200 years > either side of 820 AD. > > [Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. > It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it > of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names > between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by > the > Lamonts.] > > Yes, Neil was used by the McPhadrick Lamonts and probably other Lamonts > too. > > So Nigelli or Nigello is latin for Neil? So maybe I've been looking for the > wrong name and should look for Nigello instead amongst the Abbots of Iona.? > > > [And that would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar.] > > McKechnie took that view. He wasn't too fussed about any names prior to > Ferchar and listed the names merely out of a sense of being 'complete'. > > [It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear > just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone > produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of > Buyt > to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe.] > > > I remember coming across a charter in the Lamont Papers that appears both > in > English and in Latin. The Latin version had the name Nigello in it. I'll > find it and check what the English name was. > > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com > Sent: 16 May 2011 01:08 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Dating the Lamont Pedigree > > There are a few Lamont records from Memorials of Argyllshire which might > help date the Lamont pedigree in the new transcription. > > First the pedigree: > > Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic > eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn > mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair > mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn > > The Lamont book do doubt contains versions of the same sources. Maybe > even better ones. But this is what Memorials of Argyllshire has: > > In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani > MacKilcoli MacErewar > T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of > Laumun, son of > Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... > Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) > > Note: the author treats MacErewar as MacFearchar in his analysis. > > In a charter dated before 1249, granted by Angus filii Donaldi in terra mea > de Kentyr, > among the witnesses are Farchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt and Duncano fratre > suo. > > Also in 1292 Scots Act of Parliament > > We command and direct by these presents, that without any > delay whatever, you cause summons of warning be served of Sir > Angus son of Donald, Lawmund son of Ereghere, and Angus > son of Duncan, the son of Eregere. > > Lamont MacFearchar and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Fearchar. > > 1230 - 1246 > > Gifts to Kilinan, Kilmore and Kilmun. > > Duncan, son of Ferchar, and Laumun, son of Malcolm, > grandson of said Duncan...... > > I can't really do a genealogy chart in an email so I have to simplify it. > > Nigelli de Buyt 1249 > Ferchar 1249, 1292 > Malcolm 1230-1246 > Lauman 1230-1246 > > This seems to fit part of the pedigree. > > ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair > > These aren't death dates; just dates in sources or charters when the names > appear. > > Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. > It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it > of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names > between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by > the > Lamonts. > > The only record recorded when Fearchar was alive was in 1249. Old or > young? Who knows? But if you take that as a starting point and walk down > the > pedigree using 30 years as a generation you find something like this: > > neill guirm .i. ab ite 930 > murachaidh or gilladdub 960 > gillacrist 990 > domnaill 1010 > > missing name 1040 > muiredaigh 1070 > > connstantin 1100 > flaitbertaig 1130 > anradain 1160 > aed alainn (ie, Buirche) 1190 > Duinnshleibhe 1220 > Fearchar 1250 > > Being of the suspicious sort I think Nigelli de Buyt is probably the Nial > in this pedigree. Which would mean it's basically a fabrication. And > that > > would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar. If the > pedigree is a fabrication than what might that mean for the other families > also > linked to the same line prior to Fearchar, ie, Duinnshleibe and Anradan? > > It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear > just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone > produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of > Buyt > to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe. > > > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message