["Fearghus Ó Fearghail identifies himself quite clearly on f. 1v. Other notes by him, or by Rudhraidhe Ó Fearghail (his father or grandfather), appear at ff. 6v, 7v, 9v, 10v, 12v, 17r, 21v and 25v. Notes by another Irishman well known to have travelled in Scotland, Fearghal Óg Mac an Bháird (fl. 1583– 1608), appear on ff. 10v (?) and 25v. This allows us to say that, whereas it was clearly Dubhghall Albanach himself who brought the ‘1467 ms’ to Scotland, it must have been Mac an Bháird or an Ó Fearghail who brought the ‘ Broad Book’ from Ireland, and it would have been an Ó Fearghail who put them together."] Do you think there's any significance in the fact that Stronalbanach, near Inverary, is known to have been owned by the Lamonts for hundreds of years, and that Bernard suggests as follows: [How about after "Ic Doneill" on line 27 the entry "Ic Meilaert" ? Meallaird is Melfort or Melford 10 miles south of Oban] Ten miles south of Oban places Meallaird very close to Stronalbanach. It could just be co-incidence, but I can't help wondering about Dubhghall Albanach. Who was he? Also, who was Fearghal Mac an Bhaird? This is becoming very interesting. Could this in any way mean that Niall guarm is actually Niall Frossach (ie mac Fergaile)? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 21 May 2011 23:36 To: jerrykelly@att.net; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Did Gaelic scribes take shorthand? (Nodanna) Has anyone read the history of the manuscript as supplied by the Blacks? "The first section, folios 1–9, was written in 1467 by Dubhghall Albanach mac mhic Cathail (‘Scottish Dugald son of the son of Cathal’). Judging from his name and his interests, he was clearly a Scottish Gael, probably a member of the MacMhuirich bardic family (whose most characteristic name in a later period was Cathal) and a native of Kintyre, the principal base from which his family served the Lords of the Isles until 1490 as poets and historians." This section (folio 1-9) includes the genealogies. I wonder about the conclusion that he was Scottish though. I've seen Albanach in numerous Irish genealogies in O'Clery and it seems in those cases to imply "fostered in Scotland" or at least some connection with Scotland for an Irishman. The MacMhuirich family, bards to the McDonalds, were known to be Irish. Can that be what Albanach refers to? "The Highland genealogies on the first folio appear to have been copied, at least partly by dictation, from a text dating from about 1400. However, the fact that they are untidily crushed into the folio in irregular columns of close script (note the way the scribe returns from the end of column bc at f. 1v to fill up column c, lines 1–16) suggests that until now f. 1 had been left blank as a cover for the rest of the manuscript, and that it was being hastily employed as the only available material on which to write the text – very much the modern ‘back of an envelope’. This would point to 1467 or after as the date of writing, and would make it likely that the genealogies were written in Scotland on Dubhghall’s return. In confirmation of this it may be noted that the only marginalia post-dating Dubhghall in ff. 1– 9, and the only marginalia of any kind on f. 1, are by two hands familiar in Scottish manuscripts, those of Fearghus Ó Fearghail and John Beaton. " Dubhgall's return This is explained by a prior paragraph. "Dubhghall gives us his own name at folios 3r, 5r, 7r and 8r. At folio 7r he adds that he is writing in the presence of Elizabeth Butler in what he calls baile I Buagh—, presumably for baile Uí Bhuadhaigh or baile Uí Bhuadhacháin. The location of this place is strongly suggested by the fact that the Butlers were earls of Ormond (Co. Tipperary)." So the MS. was written in Ireland? And does the material date to about 1400 in Ireland? If so the only sources I know would be the Books of Ballymote and Lecan, dated to about 1400 or a little before. "Fearghus Ó Fearghail identifies himself quite clearly on f. 1v. Other notes by him, or by Rudhraidhe Ó Fearghail (his father or grandfather), appear at ff. 6v, 7v, 9v, 10v, 12v, 17r, 21v and 25v. Notes by another Irishman well known to have travelled in Scotland, Fearghal Óg Mac an Bháird (fl. 1583– 1608), appear on ff. 10v (?) and 25v. This allows us to say that, whereas it was clearly Dubhghall Albanach himself who brought the ‘1467 ms’ to Scotland, it must have been Mac an Bháird or an Ó Fearghail who brought the ‘ Broad Book’ from Ireland, and it would have been an Ó Fearghail who put them together." Reading this has entirely changed my thinking on the source of the pedigrees in the MS. 1467. I now think they were Irish originals, written in Ireland, probably in the Books of Ballymote and Lecan, and carried to Scotland. Since the only version in Irish manuscript of this time are for the MacSweeneys I think (as many Irish historians have said) they were invented specifically for them when they settled in Donegal c. 1345. In attempting to decipher the script of the MS. 1467 you would do well to consider the MacSweeney pedigrees in Ballymote and Lecan, both of which appear in my writeup of the Anradan kindred. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/anradan.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/anradan.htm) I am going to have to revise this material on the basis of the new transcription. If nothing else it makes it abundantly clear that Skene's original transcription containing a Nialgusa was wrong; a transcription that appeared to link the Lamonts and the rest of the Anradan kindred to the same stock as the McDonalds. I do not know yet what I will use in it's place. It's a logical deduction that the MS. 1467 should contain a pedigree identical or nearly identical to that found in MacSweeney in Ballymote and Lecan. And that would contain a descent from Nial glundubh. I am not yet sure that can be identified with certainty in the MS. 1467. Somewhere I have a copy of the MacSweeney pedigree from Ballymote. I'll see if I can find it. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> [How about after "Ic Doneill" on line 27 the entry "Ic Meilaert" ? Further reading I correct myself to "Ic Meilacr" (I cannot tell if a "t" runs into the curve of the "r"), so I am closer to original transcription of "gillacrist". I am no experted at reading Gaelic manuscripts, however I still struggling to see "gillacrist". After the Mhic in the middle of line 27, there seems to be an M followed by what looks like somewhat like an "e". This conflict with what I would have expected to have seen as Gillacrist. (Maybe what I see as a possible "t" at the end is just a shorthand line above the "r".) What is clear is the MS1467 pedigree for the MacLadhmainn does match any other pedigrees for the descendants of Anrathan. I highlight the differences below in bold: Ballymote: Mc. Suibne Conachtaigh Aedha alaind renab– burrci m. Andrathan m. Aeda athloman cacomraig– Clann Neill m. Flaithbertaig i trosdan m. Muircertaigh m. Domnaill m. Muircertaig na .c.c. m. Neill glunduibh. MS1467: MacLadhmainn Aed alainn .i. buirce mhic Anradin mhic Flaitbertaig mhic Connstan mhic Muiredhagh ----?---- mhic Domnaill mhic Gillacrist mhic Murachaidh .i. Gilladub mhic Neil Guirm .i. abite I can see clearly a symbol of mhic after Domnaill (line 27) and most likely after Flaitbertaig (line 25); these generations are missing from all other pedigrees. While the other pedigrees include Aeda athloman who does not appear in the MS1467 pedigrees (noticably missing from the MacLadhmain or MacEoghain pedigrees (on the first folio)). The way the mhic Connstan and mhic Gillacrist are made as double entries on the lines, does make the pedigree similar to Irish manuscript versions. Yet the undoubtably additional generation with mhic "Gillacrist" and the missing generation of Aeda athloman makes MS1467 unlike any other pedigree of the Scottish families. Why the difference?