Bernard Apropos Orcanus, I've attached two images. The first shows my computer set-up. It's multi-screen, so I can show different documents at the same time. Top left is from the Lamont papers, where Sir James Lamont talks in 1661 of a John M'Gilligowie and a Donald M'Ilzegowie. You'll remember that he goes on to talk of a Gillidow, son of Orcanus. Bottom left is the 'how to' page of the 1467 manuscript. It's there in the hope that it may help me recognise some of the symbols and abbreviations. Bottom right is where the Lamont pedigree stops. The second attachment is the same as bottom right, but zoomed. What I do is to zoom to various degrees and stand back, move around a little, trying to get the clearest image. I'm not sure how much you'll be able to see from the attachments, but you may be able to do on your own computer what I've done on mine. Here's the rub : No matter what I do, I cannot see how the last person on the pedigree is a NEIL. I make him out to be Gillzuie, possibly an ancestor of one of the people Sir James Lamont was referring to. I can see how it could be mistaken for a Neil, but to me it looks like the 'G' has been mistaken as an 'e', and I suggest that the letter following the ll is a z, giving extra credence to it being Gillzuie when considered in conjunction with what Sir James said. However, if I then look at the person two positions higher up, I do indeed see a neill, pre-ceded by what looks like two 'd's but with inconsistent curls in the upper portion of the 'd's. I can't make out what follows the neill. Anyway, I think that this line has been misread as including a domnaill until now. I'd be interested to hear what you can make of it. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 17 May 2011 13:30 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] O'Cainus O'Cainus There talk of a family called Siol O Cain, linked (for a reason not known to me) to Mormaer of Moray. Donald O'Ceann who appears in a charter as ancestor of the Munros Anlesa O'Kyan is the said ancestor to the Buchanans and MacMillans They reprent the Clans Roich (Munro) and Clan Gillenhaol (Macmillan) of Siol O'Cain (I find no modern works on the subject.) http://www.fionamsinclair.co.uk/genealogy/HighlandClans/Munro.htm "The first known of the race is said to have been a certain Donald O'Ceann, of the time of Macbeth. The patronymic O'Ceann, Skene, in his Highlanders of Scotland, ingeniously converts into O'Cathan, and so makes out that the race is a branch of the great Clan Chattan or Siol O'Cain. It seems much more likely, however, that the name Donald O'Ceann is simply what it says - Donald, son of the Chief. The same word is found in the name of the contemporary Malcolm III, who was known as Ceannmore or Canmore, "great Chief", by his Gaelic subjects. The Munroes are also known among the Highlanders as Clan Rothich or Roich. >From this Donald O''Ceann, its first possessor, the territory on the north side of Cromarty Firth came to be known as Fearran Donuill, or Donald's Country. Foulis, or Fowlis, the actual seat of the Chief from then till now, is a local and personal name common in Scotland. There are parishes of Fowlis-Easter and Fowlis-Wester in Perthshire, and a family of Fowlises or Foulises were the owners from whom the ancestor of Lord Linlithgow in the reign of Charles I acquired by marriage the valuable mining property of Leadhills in Lanarkshire. Hugh Munro of Foulis, who died in 1126, is believed to have been a son of George, son of Donald O'Ceann. His son Robert, who is reckoned to have been the second laird or baron of Foulis, took part in the wars of David I and Malcolm IV, and died in 1164. It was Robert's heir, Donald (died 1192) who built the old tower of Foulis, and Donald's successor, another Robert, married a daughter of the Earl of Sutherland. It was to George, son of this pair, that, according to Nisbet's Heraldry, William, Earl of Sutherland, in the reign of Alexander II granted a charter which runs, "carissimo et fidelissimo consanguineo, Georgio Munro de Foulls". On the introduction of the feudal system, however, the Munroes had secured their possessions by accepting charters, not from the Earls of Sutherland but from their more immediate neighbours, the Earls of Ross. One of these charters, about 1350, expressly states that the lands of Easter Fowlis had belonged to the Munroes in free possession from the time of Donald O'Ceann. The reddendo mentioned for the lands of Pitlundie was a pair of white gloves or three pennies if required. " R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message