In a message dated 5/14/2011 11:54:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later.] I look forward to that. Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled the databases. I found another aspect of the new transcription interesting. Why aren't the MacSweeneys included? Sure they settled in Ireland but some may still have been in Argyll at about 1400 AD. I thought they might turn up as something Skene missed but no. I'm now, thanks to the new transcription, almost positive these Anradan pedigrees originated in Scotland and initially only included the Lamonts, Maclachlans, McEwans of Otter and the McSorleys of Moneydrain. I see no reason for the exclusion of the MacSweeneys from this material except that they may not have been a valid member of the so called kindred. When they settled in Ireland the Irish scribes borrowed part of their new pedigree from the O'Neills from a Scottish source. Probably because they knew they came from the same general area of Scotland. So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable NPEs, surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical Scottish surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet none has for the Scottish Maclachlans. As admin. of the McLaughlin surname project I've been looking for a Scottish cluster for years. And despite my well known views on the Anradan kindred pedigree I am willing to let the chips fall where they may in DNA. What we have in the McLaughlin project is one large group of M222 McLaughlins, quite a few of which can trace their descent to Donegal, Tryone or Londonderry, the three counties in which descendants of the old MacLochlainn of Tirconnell sept of Derry are still found today. My own is the most detailed by far. We know our ancestors came from the townland of Rathdonnell in Kilmacrenan barony not far from the city of Letterkenny. The earliest known ancestor of this family was probably born in about 1790. There are no records prior to the Tithe Applotment books that can be found. In addition to this large cluster we have a group of M222 McLaughlins and variant forms. There are eleven of these. They do not form a large related cluster but small clusters of at best two or three possibly related samples. Two samples give Scotland as place of origin. A few say Ireland. The rest are unknown or give states in the U.S. Two Laughlin samples give Tyrone and Ulster but are probably Scottish (according to them). Then we have a lot of basic R1b. Several match the Leinster modal. One possible group of three is U106/S21 based on one SNP test. A large group are I haplogroup but of different flavors. It's not clear how many of these actually match each other. Another one has recently been found to be L144. One is J2 haplogroup. A lot remain ungrouped because they match no one else in the project. We have no more than a few R1b haplotypes (non M222) that can be considered a valid cluster. There is nothing in this collection of DNA haplotypes one can point to as possibly representing the line of the old chieftains of the Maclachlans of Argyllshire. If any one can find one let me know. I'd be happy to hear about it. The Maclachlan component of the Anradan kindred has been ignored far too long. John

[I found another aspect of the new transcription interesting. Why aren't the MacSweeneys included? Sure they settled in Ireland but some may still have been in Argyll at about 1400 AD. I thought they might turn up as something Skene missed but no.] When was Castle Suibhne besieged? That should give us a date when the McSweens were definitely still in Argyllshire. Your posting warrants a much longer reply than this but I'm quite busy at the moment. More later, perhaps today, perhaps during the week. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 00:03 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription In a message dated 5/14/2011 11:54:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later.] I look forward to that. Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled the databases. I found another aspect of the new transcription interesting. Why aren't the MacSweeneys included? Sure they settled in Ireland but some may still have been in Argyll at about 1400 AD. I thought they might turn up as something Skene missed but no. I'm now, thanks to the new transcription, almost positive these Anradan pedigrees originated in Scotland and initially only included the Lamonts, Maclachlans, McEwans of Otter and the McSorleys of Moneydrain. I see no reason for the exclusion of the MacSweeneys from this material except that they may not have been a valid member of the so called kindred. When they settled in Ireland the Irish scribes borrowed part of their new pedigree from the O'Neills from a Scottish source. Probably because they knew they came from the same general area of Scotland. So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable NPEs, surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical Scottish surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet none has for the Scottish Maclachlans. As admin. of the McLaughlin surname project I've been looking for a Scottish cluster for years. And despite my well known views on the Anradan kindred pedigree I am willing to let the chips fall where they may in DNA. What we have in the McLaughlin project is one large group of M222 McLaughlins, quite a few of which can trace their descent to Donegal, Tryone or Londonderry, the three counties in which descendants of the old MacLochlainn of Tirconnell sept of Derry are still found today. My own is the most detailed by far. We know our ancestors came from the townland of Rathdonnell in Kilmacrenan barony not far from the city of Letterkenny. The earliest known ancestor of this family was probably born in about 1790. There are no records prior to the Tithe Applotment books that can be found. In addition to this large cluster we have a group of M222 McLaughlins and variant forms. There are eleven of these. They do not form a large related cluster but small clusters of at best two or three possibly related samples. Two samples give Scotland as place of origin. A few say Ireland. The rest are unknown or give states in the U.S. Two Laughlin samples give Tyrone and Ulster but are probably Scottish (according to them). Then we have a lot of basic R1b. Several match the Leinster modal. One possible group of three is U106/S21 based on one SNP test. A large group are I haplogroup but of different flavors. It's not clear how many of these actually match each other. Another one has recently been found to be L144. One is J2 haplogroup. A lot remain ungrouped because they match no one else in the project. We have no more than a few R1b haplotypes (non M222) that can be considered a valid cluster. There is nothing in this collection of DNA haplotypes one can point to as possibly representing the line of the old chieftains of the Maclachlans of Argyllshire. If any one can find one let me know. I'd be happy to hear about it. The Maclachlan component of the Anradan kindred has been ignored far too long. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

What I had planned for today took much less time than I thought it would so I have some time. [Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled the databases.] A Lemmons has cropped up on the Lamont site with DNA fairly close to mine. Also, results are pending for a Lamont with a rock-solid pedigree showing descent from the McPhadrick Lamonts of Coustoun. It may be worth a re-visit once his results have come through. My belief is that the McPhadrick Lamonts are M222 but let's await the results. McKechnie suggested that they were descended from Duncan IV of Lamont. Donchad, I think, in MS1467. I stress 'suggested'. He points out that there is no record evidence to this effect, and bases his thinking on the fact that a Patrick Lawmonson, thought to have been the eponymous McPhadrick Lamont, had a coronership that he may have acquired through descent from Duncan IV. His suggestion was that Patrick Lawmonson may have been the son of a younger son of Duncan (meaning younger than Robert in MS1467), and that could be how Patrick Lawmonson became coroner. But as I've already said, there is no record evidence of this to my knowledge. [So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable NPEs, surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical Scottish surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet none has for the Scottish Maclachlans.] Barra McCain is digging quite deeply into record evidence. He found something in The Lamont Papers that I think has led him to believe that the Argyllshire McLauchlane chiefly line daughtered out in the late 15th century. It may be worth your while contacting him in this regard. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 00:03 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription In a message dated 5/14/2011 11:54:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later.] I look forward to that. Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled the databases. I found another aspect of the new transcription interesting. Why aren't the MacSweeneys included? Sure they settled in Ireland but some may still have been in Argyll at about 1400 AD. I thought they might turn up as something Skene missed but no. I'm now, thanks to the new transcription, almost positive these Anradan pedigrees originated in Scotland and initially only included the Lamonts, Maclachlans, McEwans of Otter and the McSorleys of Moneydrain. I see no reason for the exclusion of the MacSweeneys from this material except that they may not have been a valid member of the so called kindred. When they settled in Ireland the Irish scribes borrowed part of their new pedigree from the O'Neills from a Scottish source. Probably because they knew they came from the same general area of Scotland. So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable NPEs, surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical Scottish surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet none has for the Scottish Maclachlans. As admin. of the McLaughlin surname project I've been looking for a Scottish cluster for years. And despite my well known views on the Anradan kindred pedigree I am willing to let the chips fall where they may in DNA. What we have in the McLaughlin project is one large group of M222 McLaughlins, quite a few of which can trace their descent to Donegal, Tryone or Londonderry, the three counties in which descendants of the old MacLochlainn of Tirconnell sept of Derry are still found today. My own is the most detailed by far. We know our ancestors came from the townland of Rathdonnell in Kilmacrenan barony not far from the city of Letterkenny. The earliest known ancestor of this family was probably born in about 1790. There are no records prior to the Tithe Applotment books that can be found. In addition to this large cluster we have a group of M222 McLaughlins and variant forms. There are eleven of these. They do not form a large related cluster but small clusters of at best two or three possibly related samples. Two samples give Scotland as place of origin. A few say Ireland. The rest are unknown or give states in the U.S. Two Laughlin samples give Tyrone and Ulster but are probably Scottish (according to them). Then we have a lot of basic R1b. Several match the Leinster modal. One possible group of three is U106/S21 based on one SNP test. A large group are I haplogroup but of different flavors. It's not clear how many of these actually match each other. Another one has recently been found to be L144. One is J2 haplogroup. A lot remain ungrouped because they match no one else in the project. We have no more than a few R1b haplotypes (non M222) that can be considered a valid cluster. There is nothing in this collection of DNA haplotypes one can point to as possibly representing the line of the old chieftains of the Maclachlans of Argyllshire. If any one can find one let me know. I'd be happy to hear about it. The Maclachlan component of the Anradan kindred has been ignored far too long. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message