The Irish Annals have many entries about the presence of the Uladh in western Ulster long after they were supposed to be gone. Almost all of the references are about the Cruthin tribes of the Uladh in the area near the City of Derry. Here is a quote from "Early Medieval Ireland, 400–1200" 1995, by Dáibhí Ó Cróinín. Notes: Dun Cruthin = Duncrun, a townland near Limavady which is across Lough Foyle from Inishowen, Donegal. Dál nAraide: the Uí Echach Coba (mentioned below in the OP), were the southern branch of the Dál nAraide and based in east Down. "The year 563 A.D. marked a watershed in Cruthin fortunes; a battle was won that year by a northern O'Neill alliance against the combination of Cruthin Kings, seven of whom are said to have fallen in the battle. The immediate cause appears to have been internal rivalry among the Cruthin themselves. A Cruthin dynastic enlisted the O'Neill as allies against his cousins, promising them Magilligan as a reward. The battle was also remembered by Andoman who mentions that one of the Cruthin Kings escaped in a chariot – one of the last historical references to the user chariots in combat (in the useful counter to the notion that chariot warfare in the Tain denotes great antiquity). The battle is also interesting confirmation that a territories West of the River Bann and north of the Moyola River in South East Derry only came under the control of the O'Neill years following 563 A.D. – long after the date when, according to O'Neill propaganda, the ancient King of Ulster had collapsed. The loose confederation of the Cruthin tribes which had taken the field in 563 A.D. regrouped after their defeat in the territory East of the Bann and consolidated their around the remnants of the Dál nAraide. The two antagonist clashed again at the battle a few miles West of Coleraine in 629 A.D., resulting in or out of the Dál nAraide. The Dál nAraide in fact appear again as late as in 681 A.D. resisting further O'Neill encroachment around Derry. On this occasion, however, the Dál nAraide King and his ally were killed in what the analysts called 'the burning of the Kings at Dun Cruthin'." -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Robert Reid Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 4:43 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Niall a Cruithin? Are you Cruithin? Sources: Brain Lacey’s Cenel Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms AD 500-800 Adomnan of Iona, edited by Wooding, Lacey article Adomnan and Donegal I would not bet against Brian Lacey, perhaps the most acclaimed authority on the Donegal Kingdoms 500-800: DNA testing (2006) on Cenél nÁeda Esa Ruaid (Cannon, Gallagher), Cenél Lugdach (Boyle, Doherty, McMenamin, O’Donnell), and Cenél nEógain (Devlin, Donnelly, Gormley, McLoughlin, O’Kane, Quinn) reveal a common genetic marker from a single ancestor who lived about 1,730 years ago in the Irish northwest. Lacey persuasively eliminates Niall Noígiallach as that progenitor. Dan Wiley Southern University Lacey's central thesis--that the Donegal kingdoms were unrelated to the dynasties descended from Niall Noígiallach--remains tenable and intriguing. Whether or not it will gain wide acceptance remains to be seen, but it is sure to spark a lively debate that will ultimately transform our current understanding of early Irish history Brian Lacey in his Cenel Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms AD 500-800, 2006 states the following: p. 165 To sum up, with the exception of Cenel Cairpre, there appears to be no evidence that any rulers of the Donegal kingdoms were related by blood to Niall Noigiallach or to the Ui Neill. Instead, it seems that there is evidence that the Cenel Conaill were a Cruitin people associated in some way with the Ui Echach Coba and with other, allegedly east Ulster people.. The paradox in all of this is, that, of the groups said to belonged to the northern Ui Neill, the one that would become most marginalized, the Cenel Cairpre, may have been the only genuine one among them. p. 165 Niall Noigiallach probably flourished sbout the middle of the fifth century and may himself not have ‘ruled over anything more than an ordinary tuath,’ (Reid – tuath - A trícha cét <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C3%ADcha_c%C3%A9t> ("thirty hundreds"), was an area comprising a hundred dwellings or, roughly, three thousand people. A túath consisted of a number of allied trícha céta, and therefore referred to no fewer than 6,000 people. Probably a more accurate number for a túath would be no fewer than 9,000 people (wikipedia). Although in the earlier traditions Niall is credited with seven sons whose floruits were about 470-520, at least three of those: Conall Gulban, Enna and Eogan, were not related to him at all … The remaining four: Loegaire, Fiachu, Conall Cremthainne and Coipre, may have been sons or other close relatives of Niall but Conall (if he was not just an invention to allow differentiation od Dairmait mac Cerball and his descendants from the Cenel Conall) was not the ancestor of the southern Ui Neill as is usually claimed. In addition: Adomnan of Iona, edited by Wooding, Lacey article Adomnan and Donegal, 2010, p. 22 However, having asserted Adomnan’s fictional Sil Lugdach credentials, the Cain introduction goes on to reinforce them by describing a solemn convent that is alleged to have been made between his father’s and mother’s people Then Ronnat (Adomnan’s mother) went to Brugach son of Dega and got a chain from him. She put it around her son’s breast under the bridge of the Swilly in Cenel Conaill, the place where the covenant had been made between his mother’s kindred and his father’s kindred, ie between the Cenel nEndai and cenel Lugdach .. Apart from these propagandistic references, there appears to be no other evidence that Adamnan belonged to the Cenel or Sil Lugdach. This is important as the latter were, as originally suggested by Donall Mac Giolla Easpaig, almost certainly not related by blood to the Cenel Conaill as is usually asserted. p. 23 Insofar as we can rely on them, the regular genealogies claim that Adomnan very definitely belonged to what might be called the Cenel Conaill proper. Traditionally the Cenel Conaill have been said to be part of the Ui Neill of the north; but it now seems that the claim can no longer be accepted at face value. In fact, Adomnan himself seems to throw doubt on it with reference to his relative, Columba. Adomnan makes only one specific reference to the Ui Neill in the Vita Columbae. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message