At 04:40 PM 10/7/2011, John Carey <johnca@quickclic.net> wrote: >One consequence of Yair Davidiy's distracting series of messages is that it >stimulated me to re-read Howard and Mclaughlin's paper. One thing that >struck me this time was the statement Let us end this matter with a summary of the findings: (1. When did the "ancestor" live? >Howard and Mclaughlin's paper >use a mathematical device that is based on the rate of mutations. This may or may not be acceptable but based on the latest accepted findings even using their own system the putative ancestor of R-M222 lived around the time that Neil lived. i.e. Neil or someone who lived at his time was the ancestral figure. (2. Did they originate in Scotland? It is obvious that Neil, or whoever he was, had forefathers and these may have come from elsewhere. It could have been Scotland since R-M222 is also found (at a lower rate than Ireland) in part of the Lowland area. The Scottish finds however may just as well have originated in Ireland. There is no proof either way. (3. How and Why did R-M222 expand so well compared to other recognizable DNA Modes? It has been suggested that their leadership positions were the major factor explaining the expansion? Other suggestions evoke vigorous knee-jerking objections. Who cares? Anything I suppose is possible. To my mind the leadership factor, though it may have existed, does not seem the whole story. Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel.

Here is my reply to Yair Davidiy's recent posting: John McLaughlin and I have shown by a relatively unique, straightforward and reproducible method that the M222 SNP originated sometime between about 1400 and 1900 BC - we call it 1680 +/- 300 years SD. Mr. Davidiy may not sufficiently understand that conclusion, and the method, because it is a new approach based on the results of a phylogenetic tree. I must also point out that a DNA line on the tree is NOT the same as a line on a pedigree chart. Different people on the line of a pedigree chart will have the same DNA until there is a mutation. This means that the number of lines of descent on a tree is not the number of lines on a pedigree chart. There is a lot of discussion on this posting site, thinking erroneously that it originated with Naill who lived in 400-500 AD -- that he was the progenitor of the SNP. The fact of Niall's existence is somewhat debatable, but even if he was real and not an Irish myth, and even though he may have carried the SNP, the SNP certainly did not originate with him. Because it was so easy to make the transit between what is now lowland Scotland and northern Ireland from the BC era until now, it is virtually impossible to say where the SNP's progenitor happened to be living when the mutation occurred. He could have gone from one island to the other the week before, or the week after the mutation occurred! In our M222 paper, John and I stated clearly that it is not really possible to determine where it happened but we did give heuristic arguments to the effect that at that early date there was still probably a migration from east to west, with more people being in that part of Scotland, but we really don't know. The testing that was done by the Trinity study suggested Ireland but they did not test sufficiently broadly to give that suggestion much credibility. Moreover, they used only part of the M222 SNP. Such testing should be repeated. There is no evidence that people who carry the M222 SNP are in any way unique by being stronger, more manly, healthier, great leaders (or lovers!), or that their SNP population expanded at a rate that would set them apart from the rest of the population at the time they lived. Although the Trinity study showed two concentrations in their rather limited data, our M222 paper showed no explosion in the M222 population that was any different from the explosion that was taking place around them. Other than the fascination with carrying a SNP that may have been shared by Naill, this SNP appears to be no more unique than others of its kind. - Bye from Bill Howard

Ken Nordtvedt has issued a challenge in the Rootsweb genealogy-dna forum and is happy that I issue the same challenge on his behalf in the M222 forum. Here is what he says: [From time to time people discuss software they are using to reconstruct trees from a collection of final STR haplotypes. I'm wondering if any blind tests have been done, or whether any people with such software wish to try a blind test? I can produce a collection of a few dozen haplotypes, each of 20 or so STRs, and all descendants from a common ancestor from about 100 generations ago. I will know the true demographic tree, and furthermore I will know on which tree branch segments each of the STR mutations happened on. But this information will be withheld; only the final several dozen haplotypes will be given along with the mutation rates for each of the STRs. The quality of the software reconstruction or inference of the tree along with its estimate of STR mutation locations (if the software includes such) can then be made after the software does its thing. Any takers? I am particularly interested in how the software fares in its reconstruction of the earliest era of the tree. Ken] Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Howard Sent: 10 October 2011 13:35 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Summary of a distracting series Here is my reply to Yair Davidiy's recent posting: John McLaughlin and I have shown by a relatively unique, straightforward and reproducible method that the M222 SNP originated sometime between about 1400 and 1900 BC - we call it 1680 +/- 300 years SD. Mr. Davidiy may not sufficiently understand that conclusion, and the method, because it is a new approach based on the results of a phylogenetic tree. I must also point out that a DNA line on the tree is NOT the same as a line on a pedigree chart. Different people on the line of a pedigree chart will have the same DNA until there is a mutation. This means that the number of lines of descent on a tree is not the number of lines on a pedigree chart. There is a lot of discussion on this posting site, thinking erroneously that it originated with Naill who lived in 400-500 AD -- that he was the progenitor of the SNP. The fact of Niall's existence is somewhat debatable, but even if he was real and not an Irish myth, and even though he may have carried the SNP, the SNP certainly did not originate with him. Because it was so easy to make the transit between what is now lowland Scotland and northern Ireland from the BC era until now, it is virtually impossible to say where the SNP's progenitor happened to be living when the mutation occurred. He could have gone from one island to the other the week before, or the week after the mutation occurred! In our M222 paper, John and I stated clearly that it is not really possible to determine where it happened but we did give heuristic arguments to the effect that at that early date there was still probably a migration from east to west, with more people being in that part of Scotland, but we really don't know. The testing that was done by the Trinity study suggested Ireland but they did not test sufficiently broadly to give that suggestion much credibility. Moreover, they used only part of the M222 SNP. Such testing should be repeated. There is no evidence that people who carry the M222 SNP are in any way unique by being stronger, more manly, healthier, great leaders (or lovers!), or that their SNP population expanded at a rate that would set them apart from the rest of the population at the time they lived. Although the Trinity study showed two concentrations in their rather limited data, our M222 paper showed no explosion in the M222 population that was any different from the explosion that was taking place around them. Other than the fascination with carrying a SNP that may have been shared by Naill, this SNP appears to be no more unique than others of its kind. - Bye from Bill Howard R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am RM222 and would like to know if there is any STR by STR analysis of the modal YDNA for RM222 that would indicate what various differences to the modal might mean for an individual? Bob Quinn President&CEO Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable 27 Langton Lane Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 T:610-331-4920 e-mail:raaq@live.com Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:49:54 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Summary of a distracting series > > Ken Nordtvedt has issued a challenge in the Rootsweb genealogy-dna forum and > is happy that I issue the same challenge on his behalf in the M222 forum. > > Here is what he says: > > > [From time to time peoPle discuss software they are using to reconstruct > trees from a collection of final STR haplotypes. I'm wondering if any blind > tests have been done, or whether any people with such software wish to try a > blind test? > > I can produce a collection of a few dozen haplotypes, each of 20 or so STRs, > and all descendants from a common ancestor from about 100 generations ago. > I will know the true demographic tree, and furthermore I will know on which > tree branch segments each of the STR mutations happened on. But this > information will be withheld; only the final several dozen haplotypes will > be given along with the mutation rates for each of the STRs. > > The quality of the software reconstruction or inference of the tree along > with its estimate of STR mutation locations (if the software includes such) > can then be made after the software does its thing. > > Any takers? I am particularly interested in how the software fares in its > reconstruction of the earliest era of the tree. > > Ken] > > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Howard > Sent: 10 October 2011 13:35 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Summary of a distracting series > > Here is my reply to Yair Davidiy's recent posting: > > John d and > reproducible method that the M222 SNP originated sometime between about 1400 > and 1900 BC - we call it 1680 +/- 300 years SD. Mr. Davidiy may not > sufficiently understand that conclusion, and the method, because it is a new > approach based on the results of a phylogenetic tree. I must also point out > that a DNA line on the tree is NOT the same as a line on a pedigree chart. > Different people on the line of a pedigree chart will have the same DNA > until there is a mutation. This means that the number of lines of descent on > a tree is not the number of lines on a pedigree chart. > > There is a lot of discussion on this posting site, thinking erroneously that > it originated with Naill who lived in 400-500 AD -- that he was the > progenitor of the SNP. The fact of Niall's existence is somewhat debatable, > but even if he was real and not an Irish myth, and even though he may have > carried the SNP, the SNP certainly did not originate with him. > > Because it was so easy to make the transit between what is now lowland > Scotland and northern Ireland from the BC era until now, it is virtually > impossible to say where the SNP's progenitor happened to be living when the > mutation occurred. He could have gone from one island to the other the week > before, or the week after the mutatIon occurred! In our M222 paper, John > and I stated clearly that it is not really possible to determine where it > happened but we did give heuristic arguments to the effect that at that > early date there was still probably a migration from east to west, with more > people being in that part of Scotland, but we really don't know. The testing > that was done by the Trinity study suggested Ireland but they did not test > sufficiently broadly to give that suggestion much credibility. Moreover, > they used only part of the M222 SNP. Such testing should be repeated. > > There is no evidence that people who carry the M222 SNP are in any way > unique by being stronger, more manly, healthier, great leaders (or lovers!), > or that their SNP population expanded at a rate that would set them apart > from the rest of the population at the time they lived. Although the Trinity > study showed two concentrations in their rather limited data, our M222 paper > showed no explosion in the M222 population that was any different from the > explosion that was taking place around them. Other than the fascination with > carrying a SNP that may have been shared by Naill, this SNP appears to be no > more unique than others of its kind. > > - Bye from Bill Howard > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

At 02:34 PM 10/10/2011, you wrote: >Here is my reply to Yair Davidiy's recent posting: > >John McLaughlin and I have shown by a relatively unique, >straightforward and reproducible method that the M222 SNP originated >sometime between about 1400 and 1900 BC - we call it 1680 +/- 300 years SD. You used an outdated mutation rate. The newly accepted rate is twice as frequent meaning that the distance in time should be halved. This brings us to within the time-frame attributed to Neil, assuming your system is otherwise correct, and it probably is not. >There is no evidence that people who carry the M222 SNP are in any >way unique by being stronger, more manly, healthier, great leaders >(or lovers!), Maybe. On the other hand there may be some men (and women?) on this list who disagree. [ I am joking. ] Survival of a DNA mode may be an outcome of genetic factors that are less prosaic. > or that their SNP population expanded at a rate that would set > them apart from the rest of the population at the time they lived. > Although the Trinity study showed two concentrations in their > rather limited data, our M222 paper showed no explosion in the M222 > population that was any different from the explosion that was > taking place around them. Other than the fascination with carrying > a SNP that may have been shared by Naill, this SNP appears to be no > more unique than others of its kind. If something expands from almost zero to ca. 12% of the population and ca. 3 million (or more people) in ca. 1600 years and it is the ONLY known Mode in the world that does so, then I would say that is exceptional. Even with your figures it exceptional. The experts say that there was no know R1b of ANY KIND in Europe before ca. 1000 BCE. You claim that R-M222 was gallivanting around the place 2000 years earlier ands that you have proof of it. Why have none of the experts heard of you? >- Bye from Bill Howard