Reply to Paul Conroy, I stand by my posting. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. Moreover, if the analytic results using the tested SNPs are identical to the analytic results derived from non-tested SNPs when the latter conforms to the 73% criterion, it also behaves like a duck. This is not a false definition as you suggest - it is a realization that there is virtually a 100% correlation in the analytic results of using tested and non-tested M222 as long as the markers meet that criterion. It is a fact that if the haplotype string for a non-tested group of M222s that otherwise meet the 73% criterion and if they give the identical analytic result, it just plain doesn't matter if the group has also been tested, as long as it meets the 73% criterion. I don't want to be pedantic here, but deeper and more careful thought will show that, aside from mutations, the M222 SNP itself has not changed. Its existence is a fact. It is our definition of it, starting with only a small number of markers, and evolving to where we are today, that has changed. If you are a purist, you may confine your thoughts only to M222 haplotypes that have been SNP tested but you are missing an opportunity that may be uncovered if more haplotypes (that cannot be told apart operationally) are not used to refine the analyses based on a larger set of statistics. My point is that when a haplotype meets the 73% criterion, it just plain doesn't matter. You get the same set of analytic results using either set. That's what we find, and that is a fact, not an opinion. I think the way to alienate opinion on this list is to use capital letters as a shout and not realize that this is a discussion board where people can express their own opinions and compare their results. If you wish to confine yourself to tested SNPs, you can do so, but I think you are missing a bet. We are publishing our results in a refereed journal, so it will be a part of our scientific legacy. Can you say the same? - Bye from Bill Howard