At 01:48 PM 10/3/2011, Bill wrote: >Mr. Davidiy, a poster from Jerusalem, Israel, >wrote earlier: "I deal in Biblical Exegesis >(i.e., interpretations of Scripture), in >legends, in historical studies, in obscure >facts, and other such matters. My researches >would not be considered academic but rather, in >the eyes of some, those of an eccentric (to be polite about it)." > >Yes, I can see that. Good for you. At least there was something I said you did see. >I should have realized that I was dealing with >someone who appears to be dealing with faith >rather than with science. He did put into his >subject line that his posting dealt with Celtic tribes I did? It is not there Bill. Nowhere in what I wrote is the word Celtic to be found. Is this an example of you blind faith in the unknown Bill? seeing things that are not there? >— much after the appearance of M222. >I note that Mr. Davidiy has lectured on the >whereabouts of the lost tribes of Israel and has >apparently been trying to connect the carriers >of the M222 SNP with his beliefs. See http://britam.org/ I wrote a note. I did not directly mention my beliefs nor did I include my URL. You did. What carriers of M222 SNP have I been trying to contact Bill? First you see I mentioned the appearance of Celtic Tribes then you say I have been trying to contact people I do not call ever considering. Are you psychic Bill? Is this the equivalent of a secular Inquisition? Are my private beliefs that I did not mention considered grounds for excommunication? This is not the first time you have been hounding me on DNA forums, is it Bill? You have a habit of attempting to instil prejudice against me and not letting my points be heard on their own merits. Just because I believe that the Ten Tribes are in the west you have decided that I have no right to express any opinion on DNA matters whether I mention my other beliefs or not. This suggest a possible feeling of personal insecurity on your part. It also shows unnecessary negativity and failure to focus on the point under discussion. >I stand by the paper on M222 that John >McLaughlin and I wrote. It deals with genetics and science, not with faith. What paper? What are you talking about Bill? Did I mention a paper? As well as Celts and Ten Tribes and who knows what other things? Now there is a paper? >Mr. Davidiy has tried to make the facts fit his >beliefs. He should tailor his beliefs to fit the >facts. This reminds me of when the Church's >faith in an earth-centric solar system clashed >with the facts put forth by Copernicus that we >live in a sun-centric solar system. The facts won out in the end. Whose facts Bill? You are the Church man, not I. >Let's discuss facts and their interpretation, not matters of faith. >I consider this exchange to be at an end. I said something. You said other things whose pertinence was not very clear to anybody but yourself, if that. Now you are closing the discussion that never really managed to get started because you insisted on going off on a tangent at the very beginning. If you want to get at the truth you have to be prepared to discuss it, to stick to the point, not to engage in ad hominum criticisms, to make yourself clear, to exchange viewpoints and information, and not to throw in the towel as soon as the other side gives back what you were trying to dish out. A little more sensitivity towards others Bill and less seeking offence where no offence was intended. Yair Jerusalem Israel. >- Bye from Bill Howard

Sundry Issues, a partial Apology, and the Historical Misconception of Bill and John I just had an unwelcome altercation with Bill Howard. See the 2 messages of Bill Howard and the 2 of Yair Davidiy in the thread: Re: [R-M222] Speculations on Celtic Tribes-Notions On the whole obviously "Yours Truly" was the wronged party. On one point however I seem to have been mistaken. I said: # This is not the first time you have been hounding me on DNA forums, is it Bill? You have a habit of attempting to instill prejudice against me and not letting my points be heard on their own merits. # This was a mistake. I must have confused Bill Howard with someone else from the list regarding this matter. Bill Howard apparently had not hounded my august being in the past. On this point (and this point alone) I apologize. Bill Howard kept referring to a paper. We tracked the document down. A Dated Phylogenetic Tree of M222 SNP Haplotypes: Exploring the DNA of Irish and Scottish Surnames and Possible Ties to Niall and the Uí Néill Kindred -- William E. Howard III and John D. McLaughlin -- [1]http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Pa per.pdf I looked at it. I will look at it again later. On one point at least however they seem to be misleading. The paper says: # From archeological evidence centered on the spread of bronze workings, males whose haplotypes fall within the R1b haplogroup that contains the M222 SNP had already settled around the Alps by 2300 BC. They had reached Iberia by 2250 BC, Britain by 2100 BC and Ireland by 2000 BC. Although there may be some uncertainty in the dates, the east-to-west migration pattern seems well established, with both Britain and Ireland having at least a small, primitive population by about 2000 BC. These times were well before the arrival of seaborne explorers, pillagers and traders from the Mediterranean or Scandinavia. # It then goes on to give a whole archaeological scenario dating phenomena that we consider to be recent way way back in the distant past. This however is not consistent with the moist recent DNA findings. There is No real evidence that R1b existed in Europe before ca. 1000 BCE. See: We Are Not Our Ancestors: Evidence for Discontinuity between Prehistoric and Modern Europeans Ellen Levy-Coffman [2]http://www.slideshare.net/Pammy98/we-are-not-our-ancestors-evidence-for-d iscontinuity-between Facial Skeletons Show that Modern Europeans NOT Descended from Stone or Bronze Age Europe! Noriko Seguchi, Conrad B. Quintyn , Sherry C. Fox , A. Russell Nelson , Sotiris K. Manolis , and Pan Qifeng [3]http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_1.htm R1b1b2 in Europe dating rethink [4]http://dna-forums.org/index.php/blog/2/entry-164-r1b1b2-in-europe-dating- rethink/ Wave-of-Advance Models of the Diffusion of the Y Chromosome Haplogroup R1b1b2 in Europe [5]http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.002159 2 Per Sjodin1*, Olivier Francois2 1 Department of Evolutionary Biology, Evolutionary Biology Centre, Uppsala University, Norbyvagen, Uppsala, Sweden, 2 University Joseph Fourier Grenoble, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, TIMC-IMAG UMR 5525, Mathematical and Computational Biology, Grenoble, France Anyway all this is taking us away from considerations of dna-r1b1c7 per se. My original post however was pertinent but not crucial. We can get by without discussing the matter. Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel. PS. Regarding what is pertinent and what is not Bill Howard did take the trouble to send me off the list a link to an article he had written against the State of Israel in which I live. Bill said: PS - Read my essay, below. It shows what I believe to be a valid interpretation of the facts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- Here is an essay on the Middle East that was published over 7 years ago. It remains valid today. [6]http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/archives_roll/2004_10-12/howard_root/ho ward_root.html Wonders will never cease. As far as I am concerned all the Palestinians should be re-settled in the west. How many will Dublin take? Yair Davidiy Jerusalem Israel. References 1. http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Paper.pdf 2. http://www.slideshare.net/Pammy98/we-are-not-our-ancestors-evidence-for-discontinuity-between 3. http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_1.htm 4. http://dna-forums.org/index.php/blog/2/entry-164-r1b1b2-in-europe-dating-rethink/ 5. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0021592 6. http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/archives_roll/2004_10-12/howard_root/howard_root.html