Hi, Paul, yes I saw the DNA forums discussion; those discussions are about all that is out there, and origination a bit fuzzy w/the anonymity of the one contributor. I likewise agree with your points regarding the evolution of M222 in terms of SNP identifications. On the ages of these, what we have are projections based on all the various computer analytical models which I think we all agree are not at present the final answer. In terms of mutations, however, it is in my mind rightly or wrongly that the STR's may have more to do with population migrations/and living environs to a greater degree than what some believe-- at least for those populations back then. To put it simplistically, and we all know these things --if we look at the other animal populations, ie various mamals, birds, reptiles, etc. we will see various types evolve differently in different environments--most obviously the Galapagus, Australia, Hawaii, etc. We also know this process was in affect among humans and obvious when we consider the various races which developed with in geographic areas. Thus we have to also accept that obviously the STR's with in a sub-clave are subject. Mutation and evolution takes time, and it begins with one progenitor and spreads out. I suspect this most strongly with the very close matches evidenced between M222 McC group A and M222 Duncan group B of the Donnachaidh project as it seems that this group very likely rose from the Ancient McC's on the Island of Bute who were subsequently chartered in 1506. Yes, populations were more mobile than we often remember, however some core populations were more fixed for extended periods of time. The idea that newly identified SNPs may help sift all of this -- yes, maybe, but likely we will see it among the marker signatures more readily than the SNP's if for no other reason than the STR's are more inclined to mutate more frequently with those mutations also passed down through the chain. The point being, we have to consider both, and this is not a new discussion. Until testing for DF23 gets underway with significant data accumulated, I'd say, yes the jury is out. Beyond the discussion on the forums we know nothing about it nor the voracity of the claims made there. DF23 could be one of those which is geographically confined and thus, yes, it may help in that regard but likely will not help in the absence of other SNP the rest of M222 in other environs/locations. I think what we are going to find out about M222 is that as some have suggested it extended farther afield than Ulster (Connaught, Donegal eastward across the sea to Scotland. Just what if it did migrate into both Ireland and Scotland and flourished because A) those environs were basically the end of the road for these Celtic populations, and it flourished there because of the rich environment and the fact that it was somewhat a protected environment. Yes there were invasions and wars but the coalescence was allowed due to environment. What if all three SNP (L21, DF 23, and M222) migrated in? Does discovering them among the descendants of those populations there in the here and now necessarily preclude that or are we witnessing the flourishing of populations? I don't know the answers to all of that; no one else does, and I mention it only because there is such a thing as putting all the eggs in one basket and when they hatch we find a goose, a chicken, and a duck among perhaps a bunch of others. Susan On 10/24/2011 3:00 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com <mailto:dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > (pabloburns@comcast.net <mailto:pabloburns@comcast.net>) > 2. Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > (pabloburns@comcast.net <mailto:pabloburns@comcast.net>) > 3. Re: Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations (Sandy Paterson)

Susan, Paul http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=10088.0 My interpretation of the posting by MJOST on September 21 at 10:16:21 is that all M222+ are expected to be DF23 and some L21+ are expected to be DF23- But to me the most exciting information is that a Jay Flatley who is M222+ has had a full-genome sequencing done. But there's more. If MJOST is correct, it means that L21+, although ancestral to M222+, is not parental to M222+. DF23 is! And this raises the interesting possibility that Niall may have been DF23+,M222-. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: 24 October 2011 13:42 To: dna-r1b1c7; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations Hi, Paul, yes I saw the DNA forums discussion; those discussions are about all that is out there, and origination a bit fuzzy w/the anonymity of the one contributor. I likewise agree with your points regarding the evolution of M222 in terms of SNP identifications. On the ages of these, what we have are projections based on all the various computer analytical models which I think we all agree are not at present the final answer. In terms of mutations, however, it is in my mind rightly or wrongly that the STR's may have more to do with population migrations/and living environs to a greater degree than what some believe-- at least for those populations back then. To put it simplistically, and we all know these things --if we look at the other animal populations, ie various mamals, birds, reptiles, etc. we will see various types evolve differently in different environments--most obviously the Galapagus, Australia, Hawaii, etc. We also know this process was in affect among humans and obvious when we consider the various races which developed with in geographic areas. Thus we have to also accept that obviously the STR's with in a sub-clave are subject. Mutation and evolution takes time, and it begins with one progenitor and spreads out. I suspect this most strongly with the very close matches evidenced between M222 McC group A and M222 Duncan group B of the Donnachaidh project as it seems that this group very likely rose from the Ancient McC's on the Island of Bute who were subsequently chartered in 1506. Yes, populations were more mobile than we often remember, however some core populations were more fixed for extended periods of time. The idea that newly identified SNPs may help sift all of this -- yes, maybe, but likely we will see it among the marker signatures more readily than the SNP's if for no other reason than the STR's are more inclined to mutate more frequently with those mutations also passed down through the chain. The point being, we have to consider both, and this is not a new discussion. Until testing for DF23 gets underway with significant data accumulated, I'd say, yes the jury is out. Beyond the discussion on the forums we know nothing about it nor the voracity of the claims made there. DF23 could be one of those which is geographically confined and thus, yes, it may help in that regard but likely will not help in the absence of other SNP the rest of M222 in other environs/locations. I think what we are going to find out about M222 is that as some have suggested it extended farther afield than Ulster (Connaught, Donegal eastward across the sea to Scotland. Just what if it did migrate into both Ireland and Scotland and flourished because A) those environs were basically the end of the road for these Celtic populations, and it flourished there because of the rich environment and the fact that it was somewhat a protected environment. Yes there were invasions and wars but the coalescence was allowed due to environment. What if all three SNP (L21, DF 23, and M222) migrated in? Does discovering them among the descendants of those populations there in the here and now necessarily preclude that or are we witnessing the flourishing of populations? I don't know the answers to all of that; no one else does, and I mention it only because there is such a thing as putting all the eggs in one basket and when they hatch we find a goose, a chicken, and a duck among perhaps a bunch of others. Susan On 10/24/2011 3:00 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com <mailto:dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > (pabloburns@comcast.net <mailto:pabloburns@comcast.net>) > 2. Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > (pabloburns@comcast.net <mailto:pabloburns@comcast.net>) > 3. Re: Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations (Sandy Paterson) R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message