Hi, to John, While I don't know of a specific comparison of the geologic history of land connections in the M222 part of the world, I do know that geologists have spoken about France and England having a connection across the English Channel, but my memory suggests that it was far before the origin of the M222 SNP in about 1680 BC. There are other studies of such connections across the Bearing Straits where the ancestors of the North American Indians probably crossed, again many years before 2000 BC. Making inquiries through Google would probably get a lot of information on the subject. However, both across the English Channel and certainly across the 15-20 km narrow point that separates lowland Scotland from NE Ireland, you can see the other shore from either side. It takes little imagination to conclude that people on either shore would explore what it was like on the other shore, and if they were escaping from raids, etc., it would have provided additional incentives to cross the body of water and see what was on the other side. That would have been the case when the first inhabitants appeared on either shore. The ease by which it was possible to go from Scotland to Ireland, even far back in the BC era, makes it difficult if not impossible to determine where the origin of families and their surnames, including the M222 SNP, happened. John and I had a lot of discussion on this issue before we wrote what we did in our paper. And, by the way, we have an indication from the editor of the journal, Familia (Ulster Historical Foundation), that our paper will be published in the 2011 edition of the journal. John has already posted what we submitted on a web site that he communicated to our Rootsweb group earlier. - Bye from Bill Howard On Oct 7, 2011, at 10:40 AM, John Carey wrote: > (I have) re-read Howard and Mclaughlin's paper. One thing that > struck me this time was the statement: > > "The R1b haplogroup of the progenitor certainly indicates that his ancestors > came from Western Europe, probably though England and arrived in Ireland by > land from lowland Scotland or by sea to the area near Co. Donegal and > Connacht." > > This got me wondering what the land connection might have looked like. A > quick search on the Internet didn't turn up much, except that I learned that > to the south-east of the North Channel there exists a geological feature > between Ireland and Scotland known as Beaufort's Dyke that has a depth in > excess of 200 metres. I presume that this could not have been the place > where a land connection existed. This suggests that the land connection > would have been to the northwest part of the North Channel which appears to > be much shallower on the maps I have seen - comparable perhaps to depths in > the English Channel. > > So, I was wondering if there has been a comparison of the geologic history > of this area with the current distribution of M222. I would also much > appreciate any suggested references to the geologic history of this area > that might be accessible from Canada. > > > > John Carey >

Thanks for your reply , Bill. I have read that the land bridge between the U.K. and the continent is thought to have split about 7500 years ago so you are correct that it was far before the origin of the M222 SNMP. However, from what I have learned about the post-glacial history of the Great Lakes area of North America where I live, some post-glacial events that have shaped our current terrain took place much more recently. For example, it is thought that Lakes Superior, Huron and Michigan were part of a much larger lake and only separated a couple of thousand years ago due largely due to continuing rebound. In Sweden, the area around Stockholm was once an arm of the Baltic Sea that is thought to have separated around 1200 AD. According to what I have read, in Great Britain the last glaciation affected Scotland but not southern England so that the post-glacial rebound is still causing the northern part to rise and the southern part to fall to this day, albeit slowly. So, I was wondering if we know what the area that currently lies between Scotland and Ireland might have looked like several thousand years ago, particularly if, as it seems, the south-eastern portion of the current North Channel is much deeper than the north-western part. I certainly don't disagree that it takes little imagination to conclude that so small a sea barrier would provide little barrier to exploration. I just wonder if a land connection closer to Donegal persisted close enough to the time we are interested in for it to be interesting. John

John, The land bridge was way before the advent of R-M222, so doesn't apply. Also the bridge connected at Antrim/Down, not Donegal. But the other issue is that, as I've mentioned countless times here before, the main form of transport in those days was on foot or by boat - boat was much faster, and so seas/rivers were the highways of their times. The peoples on both sides of this very narrow channel were the same breeding population, same culture and language. R-M222 didn't originate with the Ui Neill families, but seems to have expanded disproportionately in their descendants. I'm the R-M222 member most removed from the Modal STR values, and my ancestry goes back to Northern Ossory (aka Osraighe)/Western Laois, which has no real connection to the Ui Neills AFAIK. My closest matches are Dunn/Dunne people, and Daltons from Northern Ossory/Western Laois, then Breifne clans (especially O'Reilly) and Nith Valley Cluster members (Grier, Grierson and Milligan). One of the next furthest from the modal is a Galyean, who I believe is French. Enough said. Cheers, Paul On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:17 PM, John Carey <johnca@quickclic.net> wrote: > Thanks for your reply , Bill. > > I have read that the land bridge between the U.K. and the continent is > thought to have split about 7500 years ago so you are correct that it was > far before the origin of the M222 SNMP. > > However, from what I have learned about the post-glacial history of the > Great Lakes area of North America where I live, some post-glacial events > that have shaped our current terrain took place much more recently. For > example, it is thought that Lakes Superior, Huron and Michigan were part of > a much larger lake and only separated a couple of thousand years ago due > largely due to continuing rebound. In Sweden, the area around Stockholm > was once an arm of the Baltic Sea that is thought to have separated around > 1200 AD. According to what I have read, in Great Britain the last > glaciation affected Scotland but not southern England so that the > post-glacial rebound is still causing the northern part to rise and the > southern part to fall to this day, albeit slowly. > > So, I was wondering if we know what the area that currently lies between > Scotland and Ireland might have looked like several thousand years ago, > particularly if, as it seems, the south-eastern portion of the current > North > Channel is much deeper than the north-western part. I certainly don't > disagree that it takes little imagination to conclude that so small a sea > barrier would provide little barrier to exploration. I just wonder if a > land connection closer to Donegal persisted close enough to the time we are > interested in for it to be interesting. > > John > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Paul, That's what I thought too. I flipped through Bardon just now and he says on p4 'although rising sea levels had severed Ireland from Britain - the last land bridge is thought to have run from Inishowen to Islay - geologically they remained closely linked, especially in Ulster'. The claim is not referenced unfortunately. Has anyone come across any such claim before? Iain > From: pconroy63@gmail.com > Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 12:32:08 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Location of land bridge between Scotland and Ireland > > John, > > The land bridge was way before the advent of R-M222, so doesn't apply. Also > the bridge connected at Antrim/Down, not Donegal. > > But the other issue is that, as I've mentioned countless times here before, > the main form of transport in those days was on foot or by boat - boat was > much faster, and so seas/rivers were the highways of their times. The > peoples on both sides of this very narrow channel were the same breeding > population, same culture and language. > > R-M222 didn't originate with the Ui Neill families, but seems to have > expanded disproportionately in their descendants. > > I'm the R-M222 member most removed from the Modal STR values, and my > ancestry goes back to Northern Ossory (aka Osraighe)/Western Laois, which > has no real connection to the Ui Neills AFAIK. My closest matches are > Dunn/Dunne people, and Daltons from Northern Ossory/Western Laois, then > Breifne clans (especially O'Reilly) and Nith Valley Cluster members (Grier, > Grierson and Milligan). One of the next furthest from the modal is a > Galyean, who I believe is French. > > Enough said. > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:17 PM, John Carey <johnca@quickclic.net> wrote: > > > Thanks for your reply , Bill. > > > > I have read that the land bridge between the U.K. and the continent is > > thought to have split about 7500 years ago so you are correct that it was > > far before the origin of the M222 SNMP. > > > > However, from what I have learned about the post-glacial history of the > > Great Lakes area of North America where I live, some post-glacial events > > that have shaped our current terrain took place much more recently. For > > example, it is thought that Lakes Superior, Huron and Michigan were part of > > a much larger lake and only separated a couple of thousand years ago due > > largely due to continuing rebound. In Sweden, the area around Stockholm > > was once an arm of the Baltic Sea that is thought to have separated around > > 1200 AD. According to what I have read, in Great Britain the last > > glaciation affected Scotland but not southern England so that the > > post-glacial rebound is still causing the northern part to rise and the > > southern part to fall to this day, albeit slowly. > > > > So, I was wondering if we know what the area that currently lies between > > Scotland and Ireland might have looked like several thousand years ago, > > particularly if, as it seems, the south-eastern portion of the current > > North > > Channel is much deeper than the north-western part. I certainly don't > > disagree that it takes little imagination to conclude that so small a sea > > barrier would provide little barrier to exploration. I just wonder if a > > land connection closer to Donegal persisted close enough to the time we are > > interested in for it to be interesting. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ian, There's a rough map of the Land Bridge here: http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/pre_norman_history/iceage.html My point was that the land bridge was irrelevant, this was one breeding population, sharing the same culture and language R-M222 came much later, and probably from the Continent, and if I'm correct probably came in more than one stream to Ireland, as Southern and Eastern R-M222 may not be related closely to the main body of Northern R-M222. Cheers, Paul On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com>wrote: > > Paul, > That's what I thought too. I flipped through Bardon just now and he says on > p4 > > 'although rising sea levels had severed Ireland from Britain - the last > land bridge is thought to have run from Inishowen to Islay - geologically > they remained closely linked, especially in Ulster'. > The claim is not referenced unfortunately. Has anyone come across any such > claim before? > Iain > > > > > > From: pconroy63@gmail.com > > Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 12:32:08 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Location of land bridge between Scotland and > Ireland > > > > John, > > > > The land bridge was way before the advent of R-M222, so doesn't apply. > Also > > the bridge connected at Antrim/Down, not Donegal. > > > > But the other issue is that, as I've mentioned countless times here > before, > > the main form of transport in those days was on foot or by boat - boat > was > > much faster, and so seas/rivers were the highways of their times. The > > peoples on both sides of this very narrow channel were the same breeding > > population, same culture and language. > > > > R-M222 didn't originate with the Ui Neill families, but seems to have > > expanded disproportionately in their descendants. > > > > I'm the R-M222 member most removed from the Modal STR values, and my > > ancestry goes back to Northern Ossory (aka Osraighe)/Western Laois, which > > has no real connection to the Ui Neills AFAIK. My closest matches are > > Dunn/Dunne people, and Daltons from Northern Ossory/Western Laois, then > > Breifne clans (especially O'Reilly) and Nith Valley Cluster members > (Grier, > > Grierson and Milligan). One of the next furthest from the modal is a > > Galyean, who I believe is French. > > > > Enough said. > > > > Cheers, > > Paul > > > > On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:17 PM, John Carey <johnca@quickclic.net> > wrote: > > > > > Thanks for your reply , Bill. > > > > > > I have read that the land bridge between the U.K. and the continent is > > > thought to have split about 7500 years ago so you are correct that it > was > > > far before the origin of the M222 SNMP. > > > > > > However, from what I have learned about the post-glacial history of the > > > Great Lakes area of North America where I live, some post-glacial > events > > > that have shaped our current terrain took place much more recently. > For > > > example, it is thought that Lakes Superior, Huron and Michigan were > part of > > > a much larger lake and only separated a couple of thousand years ago > due > > > largely due to continuing rebound. In Sweden, the area around > Stockholm > > > was once an arm of the Baltic Sea that is thought to have separated > around > > > 1200 AD. According to what I have read, in Great Britain the last > > > glaciation affected Scotland but not southern England so that the > > > post-glacial rebound is still causing the northern part to rise and the > > > southern part to fall to this day, albeit slowly. > > > > > > So, I was wondering if we know what the area that currently lies > between > > > Scotland and Ireland might have looked like several thousand years ago, > > > particularly if, as it seems, the south-eastern portion of the current > > > North > > > Channel is much deeper than the north-western part. I certainly don't > > > disagree that it takes little imagination to conclude that so small a > sea > > > barrier would provide little barrier to exploration. I just wonder if > a > > > land connection closer to Donegal persisted close enough to the time we > are > > > interested in for it to be interesting. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >