Okay Mr Morgan, I am trying to figure out your theory for Hy Many Larkin origin. Is it that these Larkins were descended from Lorcan Mac Cathal Mor of Meath and were pushed west by the Normans & Leinstermen? If so, it would be ironic because my theory that they (we) come from Maine Mor & Niall has a corrollary that Maine of Tebtha and Maine Mor are probaby the same man. And thus we will find Oriel & Meath Larkin DNA that is M222+ and significantly correlated with the Hy Many samples. I guess your hypothesis would be supported with those same DNA findings as well. But back to your challenge to cite pre-Norman Larkins in Hy Many, let me say that my previous set was chosen for being clearly west of the Shannon. The following ones are pre-Norman but may have been on the eastern shores of the river Shannon. Refr: Ui Maine and the O'Lorcains by David A Larkin 2004 THM 890 Lorcan, son of Moran, son of Flann, son of Innnreachtaigh, son of Maelduin, son of Dungalach, son of Anmchadh AFM 885 Maenach Lorcan, Abbot of Killeigh died. AFM 932 Congalach son of Lorcan slew Dubhgilla son of Robarcon lord of Ui Cormaic. I believe this is in the Loughrea area. AFM 937 Donal son of Lorcan, lord of Aidhne died at Clonmacnoise. This is vicinity of Gort, Galway. approx 950 Maelroin Ua Lorcain buried in St Ciaran's Cell at Clonmacnoise. Now the largest grave slab still intact there. AFM 955 Raigain macFinnachta Ui Lorcain died. Not clear but was included amongst Connacht references. The O'Finnertys are another surname of the Muinter Lorcan area as well. AFM 1014 Muircheartach Ua Lorcain, Airchinneach of Lothra died. Lorrha, on the east bank of the Shannon. I realize the traditional attribution for this reference was to Dal Cassians but I think that wrong. Lorrha has Lorcan present in every available historical record since that time and modern descendants were tested M222+ and part of the tightly clustered Type 1 group in my paper. AFM 1121 A plundering excursions was made by Toirdelbhach (O'Connor, King of Connacht) ... and he lost on that occasion Muiredach Ua Flaitghbheartach lord of Iar Connacht ... Muirgheas UaLorcain and many others. Can you find such fault with all of these as to conclude there is no pre-Norman reference for Larkin in Hy Many? Brad

> Okay Mr Morgan, I am trying to figure out your theory for Hy Many Larkin > origin. Is it that these Larkins were descended from Lorcan Mac Cathal Mor > of Meath and were pushed west by the Normans & Leinstermen? The Chronicon Scotorum annal entry for the year 1121 does suggests a pre-Norman connection West of the Shannon. > If so, it would be ironic because my theory that they (we) come from Maine > Mor & Niall has a corrollary that Maine of Tebtha and Maine Mor are probaby > the same man. And thus we will find Oriel & Meath Larkin DNA that is M222+ > and significantly correlated with the Hy Many samples. I guess your > hypothesis would be supported with those same DNA findings as well. Prof Byrnes is only person I know to have made the connection between the Ui Maine of Connacht and the (Cenel) Ui Maine of Teffia. I have yet to find no merit in his supposition that if these two population bordered each other by accident in 10th century then they had a common ancestor. For in the 7th century they did not border each and where quite seperate areas. > But back to your challenge to cite pre-Norman Larkins in Hy Many, let me say > that my previous set was chosen for being clearly west of the Shannon. The > following ones are pre-Norman but may have been on the eastern shores of the > river Shannon. > > Refr: Ui Maine and the O'Lorcains by David A Larkin 2004 > > THM 890 Lorcan, son of Moran, son of Flann, son of Innnreachtaigh, son of > Maelduin, son of Dungalach, son of Anmchadh Last lords of Sil n-Anmcadha (referencing above pedigree) were the O Madden who DNA project as yet no DNA matches with the NW Ireland (M222+) modal. A number of their results do seem to match Group 14 of the O'Kelly project with is described as the descendants of "The O'Kelly of Hy Maine" and includes Count Walter Lionel Mary Gerard O'Kelly (84928) the current "Chief of the Clan". http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kellydnaproject/TestResultsTable.htm http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kellydnaproject/TestResults.htm The Ui Maine are also claimed by most pedigrees to be members of Clan Colla, and as seen in other emails are also non-M222 population. However Muintir Lorcain association with Clann Innnreachtaigh of Sil n-Anmcadha is interesting for members of the this Clann have also alternative Ui Briuin pedigrees. > AFM 885 Maenach Lorcan, Abbot of Killeigh died. > AFM 932 Congalach son of Lorcan slew Dubhgilla son of Robarcon lord of Ui Cormaic. I believe this is in the Loughrea area. Brother of Cennedig mac Lorcain, Lord of Dal Cais? and not M222+ > AFM 937 Donal son of Lorcan, lord of Aidhne died at Clonmacnoise. As Lord of Ui Fiachach Aidne he should be M222+ > approx 950 Maelroin Ua Lorcain buried in St Ciaran's Cell at Clonmacnoise. > Now the largest grave slab still intact there. Relative to Donal above? There also an Annal entry for: T985 Fearghal mac Lorcain, rí Cenéoil Fiachrach, do marbadh la Connachtaib (Clann Lorcain were a branch of Cenel Fiachach (mac Neill).) > > AFM 955 Raigain macFinnachta Ui Lorcain died. > Not clear but was included amongst Connacht references. The O'Finnertys are another surname of the Muinter Lorcan area as well. O'Finnerty/Finnaghty later over-run by the Burkes are claimed as the Ua Finnachtaigh of Clann Innnreachtaigh mac Maelduinn of Ui Maine (haven't found a full pedigree yet), however they do have a full Ui Briuin pedigree from another Innrachtaigh i.e. son of Muiredaigh (Sil Muiredaigh, a catch all for Ui Briuin Ali): O'Finnerty: Finachta m. Guillbeithi m. Flaind m. Cinaith m. Muiredaigh m. Finachta m. Gletnecan m. Fergusa m. Murcada m. Innrachtaigh m. Muiredaigh of Ui Briuin compare to Muintir Lorcain: Lorcan mac Moran mac Flann mac Innnreachtaigh, mac Maelduin mac Dungalach, mac Anmchadh of Ui Maine I wonder if the families of Clann Innnreachtaigh mac Maelduinn of Ui Maine should actually be Ui Briuin from Innrachtaigh m. Muiredaigh ? > > AFM 1014 Muircheartach Ua Lorcain, Airchinneach of Lothra died. > Lorrha, on the east bank of the Shannon. I realize the traditional > attribution for this reference was to Dal Cassians but I think that wrong. > Lorrha has Lorcan present in every available historical record since that > time and modern descendants were tested M222+ and part of the tightly > clustered Type 1 group in my paper. > > AFM 1121 A plundering excursions was made by Toirdelbhach (O'Connor, King of > Connacht) ... and he lost on that occasion Muiredach Ua Flaitghbheartach > lord of Iar Connacht ... Muirgheas UaLorcain and many others. > > Can you find such fault with all of these as to conclude there is no > pre-Norman reference for Larkin in Hy Many? Yes I can fault this list, for none actually make a link with Ui Maine. Expect for reference to a Muintir Lorcain (people of Lorcain) in a Ui Maine pedigree, then again Clann Lorcain is found amongst the Dal Cais and Cenel Fiachach.