Thanks for that post Sandy, it made me check my off modals again. I'm six off the 67 modal but only two are what are called slow moving markers. 390 and 442. I match the Ewings with the 11 at the 442 but not the 390 where I am a 24. Also match them at couple of other off modals, 456-16 and CDYa-39. With the exception of a few Burns/Byrnes, I seem to match a flotsam and jetsam of surnames (mostly Scots) at 390 and 442. Still working on my Freeman paternal lines, there are several different lines most ending in America but one that goes into Ireland. There is still a gap between where the Freemans end and where I would likely connect to other M222s. On another note for the board, one method I have found that works for triangulation with family trees (in case your trying to narrow down an NPE like myself) is the genome test at 23 and me, like FTDNA's family finder. I have been able to find some maternal matches that connected me to the Freeman paternal lines for confirmation as well as triangulation. Regards, Steve > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:34:44 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Bob > > If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information for > you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you > Scots accent. > > I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 > markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I > think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at > > DYS19 15 > DYS439 13 > DYS464c 17 > DYS456 16 > CDYa 39 > CDYb 40 > DYS442 11 > > Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm > sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the > closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 markers > including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker with > the highest Ewing specificity. > > In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, but > this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. > > It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I > believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, read > Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file > off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. > > For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations > back. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and > wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > From: granoff@zianet.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > > R-M222 folks. > > > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > > with the DYS455=12 value. > > > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > > common value is DYS 455=11. > > > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Marianne Manley Granoff > > Project Administrator > > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Steve The Freeman line that goes into Ireland - do you know where it originated? It sounds English to me but there are a few in Scotland too. One of the local councillors in Dunoon, Argyllshire (Lamont country) has the surname. It's not that common though, only 6 I think in the Lomond and Argyll telephone directory. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Steven Lominac Sent: 18 October 2011 13:07 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches Thanks for that post Sandy, it made me check my off modals again. I'm six off the 67 modal but only two are what are called slow moving markers. 390 and 442. I match the Ewings with the 11 at the 442 but not the 390 where I am a 24. Also match them at couple of other off modals, 456-16 and CDYa-39. With the exception of a few Burns/Byrnes, I seem to match a flotsam and jetsam of surnames (mostly Scots) at 390 and 442. Still working on my Freeman paternal lines, there are several different lines most ending in America but one that goes into Ireland. There is still a gap between where the Freemans end and where I would likely connect to other M222s. On another note for the board, one method I have found that works for triangulation with family trees (in case your trying to narrow down an NPE like myself) is the genome test at 23 and me, like FTDNA's family finder. I have been able to find some maternal matches that connected me to the Freeman paternal lines for co! nfirmation as well as triangulation. Regards, Steve > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:34:44 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Bob > > If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information for > you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you > Scots accent. > > I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 > markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I > think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at > > DYS19 15 > DYS439 13 > DYS464c 17 > DYS456 16 > CDYa 39 > CDYb 40 > DYS442 11 > > Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm > sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the > closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 markers > including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker with > the highest Ewing specificity. > > In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, but > this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. > > It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I > believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, read > Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file > off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. > > For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations > back. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and > wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob > Bob Quinn > President&CEO > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > 27 Langton Lane > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > T:610-331-4920 > e-mail:raaq@live.com > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > From: granoff@zianet.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > > R-M222 folks. > > > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > > with the DYS455=12 value. > > > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > > common value is DYS 455=11. > > > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Marianne Manley Granoff > > Project Administrator > > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sandy, Ah, you pegged it. Thought I had something there but just noticed the Ireland Freeman (James born in Roscommon in 1789) and a subsequent generation from Castlerea have a 12 at 442. The other M222 Freeman lines that I match have an 11. I have worked out some parallel trees in an excel schematic based on DNA matches with Walter Freeman and some known Freeman NPEs ...along with a couple of genome maternal matches in 23 and Me. Still don't know who the MRCA is with Walter though I am awfully close. This group has a number of branches that connect to some geneaologies posted in ancestry.com that do indeed go into England at least 3-4 and close to five centuries but they have some unsourced, contradictory lines which is why someone like Walter Freeman who has a PHD and is probably more meticulous than I about sources has not extended his tree across the Atlantic from America. I am following their lead at Carnicle.com (Freeman site) and just have a working tree into England. My current working theory is an M222 from Scotland/Ireland made it to England for whatever reason, probably altered their sept/clan name to Freeman for whatever reason and then came to America....for whatever reason. Yeah, I know, vague but at least the off modal match with the Ewings and various Scots is interesting. Regards, Steve > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:44:00 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > Hi Steve > > > The Freeman line that goes into Ireland - do you know where it originated? > > It sounds English to me but there are a few in Scotland too. One of the > local councillors in Dunoon, Argyllshire (Lamont country) has the surname. > It's not that common though, only 6 I think in the Lomond and Argyll > telephone directory. > > Sandy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Steven Lominac > Sent: 18 October 2011 13:07 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > Thanks for that post Sandy, it made me check my off modals again. I'm > six off the 67 modal but only two are what are called slow moving markers. > 390 and 442. I match the Ewings with the 11 at the 442 but not the 390 > where I am a 24. Also match them at couple of other off modals, 456-16 and > CDYa-39. With the exception of a few Burns/Byrnes, I seem to match a flotsam > and jetsam of surnames (mostly Scots) at 390 and 442. Still working on my > Freeman paternal lines, there are several different lines most ending in > America but one that goes into Ireland. There is still a gap between where > the Freemans end and where I would likely connect to other M222s. On > another note for the board, one method I have found that works for > triangulation with family trees (in case your trying to narrow down an NPE > like myself) is the genome test at 23 and me, like FTDNA's family finder. I > have been able to find some maternal matches that connected me to the > Freeman paternal lines for co! > nfirmation as well as triangulation. > > Regards, Steve > > > > > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:34:44 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > Hi Bob > > > > If you are kit number 136353 I think I have some interesting information > for > > you. Here's a clue : I think you are going to have to start practicing you > > Scots accent. > > > > I find kit number 136353 to have 7 misses with the M222 modal over 67 > > markers. You have posted that you miss the M222 modal by 7, which is why I > > think you may be kit number 136353. The misses are at > > > > DYS19 15 > > DYS439 13 > > DYS464c 17 > > DYS456 16 > > CDYa 39 > > CDYb 40 > > DYS442 11 > > > > Of these, DYS19, DYS439 and DYS442 match Ewing 125632 and Ewing 39537. I'm > > sure that you match many more Ewings, but these are the ones with the > > closest GD, namely a gd of 7 over 67 markers. So. A gd of 7 over 67 > markers > > including three off-modal matches, which include DYS442=11, the marker > with > > the highest Ewing specificity. > > > > In addition, you match a Smith, who I think is a Ewing NPE at a gd of 7, > but > > this time with 4 off-modal markers instead of 3. > > > > It's a long story, and no doubt the nay-sayers will have a full go, but I > > believe that you are descended from the Mackqueins of Ottir (for that, > read > > Macewens of Otter), as are (I believe) the Ewings. I'll send you a file > > off-list so that you can check your off-modal matches. > > > > For your interest, I make your TMRCA with Ewing 39537 about 24 generations > > back. > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn > > Sent: 17 October 2011 22:21 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > > > A good one to look at, I think, Marianne. I am DYS 455=11, however, and > > wouldn't be much help. Regards, Bob > > Bob Quinn > > President&CEO > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable > > > > 27 Langton Lane > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073 > > T:610-331-4920 > > e-mail:raaq@live.com > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:02:21 -0600 > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > From: granoff@zianet.com > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches > > > > > > > > > I have found a very interesting, and relatively rare, off-modal value > > > that is shared by three (possibly more) surname projects that have > > > R-M222 folks. > > > > > > Both the Herring and Heron surname projects, and the Munley/Manley > > > surname project have DYS 455=12 for most of their participants. I > > > have been in touch with the admin of the Herring project and he has > > > tested R-M222 and believes that most of his group is also > > > R-M222. Most of the Munley surname project is also R-M222. > > > > > > In searching, I also found a discussion of DYS 455=12 for the > > > "Hopkins/McCabe Cluster" on the R-L21 forum. There appear to be a > > > large number of McCabes that have this value, however most of of them > > > have NOT been tested for R-M222, and may not be so. There are a > > > couple groups where the STR values look like they could be > > > R-M222. Most of the McCabes are predicted R-M269. A couple are > > > positive for R-L159.2 and a couple are positive for R-L21. > > > > > > I also found four Scottish R-L21 Fergusons and two R-M222 Dorseys > > > with the DYS455=12 value. > > > > > > DYS 455=12 supposedly occurs less than 1% of the time. The most > > > common value is DYS 455=11. > > > > > > I know of no connection between these surnames, and would appreciate > > > hearing if there is one. The Munleys are strictly County Mayo > > > descendants, although there is supposedly a connection to the Doherty > > > clan in the 16th century that is fairly widely accepted. > > > > > > I am unfamiliar with the origins of the other surnames. Still - > > > DYS455 is one of the slowest-moving markers (mutation rate = > > > 0.00016), so this might be one STR to look at. > > > > > > I would appreciate anyone thoughts on this. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Marianne Manley Granoff > > > Project Administrator > > > Munley/Manley Surname Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message