Hi, Paul, yes I saw the DNA forums discussion; those discussions are about all that is out there, and origination a bit fuzzy w/the anonymity of the one contributor. I likewise agree with your points regarding the evolution of M222 in terms of SNP identifications. On the ages of these, what we have are projections based on all the various computer analytical models which I think we all agree are not at present the final answer. In terms of mutations, however, it is in my mind rightly or wrongly that the STR's may have more to do with population migrations/and living environs to a greater degree than what some believe-- at least for those populations back then. To put it simplistically, and we all know these things --if we look at the other animal populations, ie various mamals, birds, reptiles, etc. we will see various types evolve differently in different environments--most obviously the Galapagus, Australia, Hawaii, etc. We also know this process was in affect among humans and obvious when we consider the various races which developed with in geographic areas. Thus we have to also accept that obviously the STR's with in a sub-clave are subject. Mutation and evolution takes time, and it begins with one progenitor and spreads out. I suspect this most strongly with the very close matches evidenced between M222 McC group A and M222 Duncan group B of the Donnachaidh project as it seems that this group very likely rose from the Ancient McC's on the Island of Bute who were subsequently chartered in 1506. Yes, populations were more mobile than we often remember, however some core populations were more fixed for extended periods of time. The idea that newly identified SNPs may help sift all of this -- yes, maybe, but likely we will see it among the marker signatures more readily than the SNP's if for no other reason than the STR's are more inclined to mutate more frequently with those mutations also passed down through the chain. The point being, we have to consider both, and this is not a new discussion. Until testing for DF23 gets underway with significant data accumulated, I'd say, yes the jury is out. Beyond the discussion on the forums we know nothing about it nor the voracity of the claims made there. DF23 could be one of those which is geographically confined and thus, yes, it may help in that regard but likely will not help in the absence of other SNP the rest of M222 in other environs/locations. I think what we are going to find out about M222 is that as some have suggested it extended farther afield than Ulster (Connaught, Donegal eastward across the sea to Scotland. Just what if it did migrate into both Ireland and Scotland and flourished because A) those environs were basically the end of the road for these Celtic populations, and it flourished there because of the rich environment and the fact that it was somewhat a protected environment. Yes there were invasions and wars but the coalescence was allowed due to environment. What if all three SNP (L21, DF 23, and M222) migrated in? Does discovering them among the descendants of those populations there in the here and now necessarily preclude that or are we witnessing the flourishing of populations? I don't know the answers to all of that; no one else does, and I mention it only because there is such a thing as putting all the eggs in one basket and when they hatch we find a goose, a chicken, and a duck among perhaps a bunch of others. Susan On 10/24/2011 3:00 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > (pabloburns@comcast.net) > 2. Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > (pabloburns@comcast.net) > 3. Re: Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations (Sandy Paterson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 08:35:02 +0000 (UTC) > From: pabloburns@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <1745893154.1390637.1319358902221.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Sandy, > I don't know much about mutation rates, which I thought were random. That "Dubhthach" chart I sent the list shows many mutations downstream of L21 that do not seem to have mutated at all, some that have mutated once more, and one (L625)that is seven steps away from L21. Obviously, we have much yet to discover. > What I was trying to say (but upon rereading my message I see I did not do well) was that testing DF23 will help determine the origins--geographical and in time--of M222. Being upstream from M222, DF23 must have divided into those who are DF23+ and M222+, and those who are DF23+ but M222-. If a focal point of the latter is determined, that MAY (stress the "may")be where the M222 mutation occurred. > Paul > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 09:09:58 +0000 (UTC) > From: pabloburns@comcast.net > Subject: [R-M222] Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <366930687.1390709.1319360998028.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Susan, > If you subscribe to DNA-Forums, there is a search mechanism that will turn up a thread that started last June, when DF23 was discovered. The DF series apparently is being reported by an anonymous researcher who used the WTY material and the 1000 Genomes Project. The thread says that Thomas Krahn was informed of DF23, but he was having trouble preparing test primers for DF23. That was several months ago, and presumably he has not yet been able to do so. > David Wilson weighs in on that thread to say he long has suspected that there are several SNPs between L21 and M222. If he is correct, and more are found upstream of M222 and none below, M222 will be proven to be quite young. But there are thousands of SNPs as yet undiscovered, so in my mind the jury is still out. However, many see SNPs, and not STRs, as the tools for deep ancestry > research. > After typing the above, I saw on another forum that L459 is now thought to be between L21 and all the downstream SNPs. In other words, the mutation chain is L21 to L459, which becomes the parent from which all the others in the former L21 group branch off. So our chain now is L21/L459/DF23/M222. > Paul > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:07:06 +0100 > From: "Sandy Paterson"<alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > To:<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<000001cc916b$858d9b40$90a8d1c0$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Paul > > I thought your e-mail was clear, and I interpreted it the way you've set out > below. > > What I was getting at is that M222+ is highly unlikely to be much more than > about 50 generations 'old' and that it is therefore possible that any SNP's > downstream of M222 may be classified as 'private' by whoever makes these > decisions. > > To clarify a point though, I don't think it's correct to say that mutation > rates are random. It's the mutation process that is random, not the rates of > mutation. For example, the outcome of a single toss of an unbiased coin is > random, but the rate of turning up 'heads' is known to be 0.5 > > I nevertheless agree with your thoughts that it may be useful to know more > about DF23 and whether there are separate DF23+,M222+ and DF23+,M222- > populations. > > I suppose we can hope that there is some M222+ in the Faroe Islands, > although it's not clear to me whether their full-genome plans extend to > Y-SNP's. Even if it does, it seems that about 87% of the male population is > of Scandinavian origin, so it may lead nowhere in furthering our > understanding of M222. > > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net > Sent: 23 October 2011 09:35 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > > Sandy, > I don't know much about mutation rates, which I thought were random. That > "Dubhthach" chart I sent the list shows many mutations downstream of L21 > that do not seem to have mutated at all, some that have mutated once more, > and one (L625)that is seven steps away from L21. Obviously, we have much yet > to discover. > What I was trying to say (but upon rereading my message I see I did not > do well) was that testing DF23 will help determine the origins--geographical > and in time--of M222. Being upstream from M222, DF23 must have divided into > those who are DF23+ and M222+, and those who are DF23+ but M222-. If a focal > point of the latter is determined, that MAY (stress the "may")be where the > M222 mutation occurred. > Paul > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 351 > ****************************************** >