Sandy -- you know I've an open mind about all of it, and anything is possible. Since we haven't Nial's DNA we don't know anything regarding his genetic make up, even though the evidence has been mounting that just perhaps he was a carrier of the SNP. I am going to throw out there for digestion something that I just a few days ago pledged that I would not, and I will do so in the form of a question. M222 is considered a Celtic population SNP, correct? Has anyone read up on Celtic Society practices and conventions in reference to their high holiday observations and celebrations and traditional pre Christian activities which are know to have been practiced during these? While some observances were for a day and a night, some extended to several days and night worth of celebrations. Also keep in mind that with-in the Gaelic population even post advent of Christianity that certain conventions were held onto long after the otherwise religious conversions. In terms of spread of M222 and other sub-claves with-in the Celtic populations, the surveying of cultural traditions may indeed lend perspective. Susan On 10/24/2011 10:04 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > Susan, Paul > > > http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=10088.0 > > > My interpretation of the posting by MJOST on September 21 at 10:16:21 is > that all M222+ are expected to be DF23 and some L21+ are expected to be > DF23- > > But to me the most exciting information is that a Jay Flatley who is M222+ > has had a full-genome sequencing done. > > But there's more. If MJOST is correct, it means that L21+, although > ancestral to M222+, is not parental to M222+. DF23 is! And this raises the > interesting possibility that Niall may have been DF23+,M222-. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen > Sent: 24 October 2011 13:42 > To: dna-r1b1c7; dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > > > Hi, Paul, yes I saw the DNA forums discussion; those discussions are > about all that is out there, and origination a bit fuzzy w/the anonymity > of the one contributor. I likewise agree with your points regarding the > evolution of M222 in terms of SNP identifications. On the ages of > these, what we have are projections based on all the various computer > analytical models which I think we all agree are not at present the > final answer. > > In terms of mutations, however, it is in my mind rightly or wrongly that > the STR's may have more to do with population migrations/and living > environs to a greater degree than what some believe-- at least for > those populations back then. To put it simplistically, and we all know > these things --if we look at the other animal populations, ie various > mamals, birds, reptiles, etc. we will see various types evolve > differently in different environments--most obviously the Galapagus, > Australia, Hawaii, etc. We also know this process was in affect among > humans and obvious when we consider the various races which developed > with in geographic areas. > > Thus we have to also accept that obviously the STR's with in a sub-clave > are subject. Mutation and evolution takes time, and it begins with one > progenitor and spreads out. I suspect this most strongly with the > very close matches evidenced between M222 McC group A and M222 Duncan > group B of the Donnachaidh project as it seems that this group very > likely rose from the Ancient McC's on the Island of Bute who were > subsequently chartered in 1506. Yes, populations were more mobile than > we often remember, however some core populations were more fixed for > extended periods of time. > > The idea that newly identified SNPs may help sift all of this -- yes, > maybe, but likely we will see it among the marker signatures more > readily than the SNP's if for no other reason than the STR's are more > inclined to mutate more frequently with those mutations also passed down > through the chain. > > The point being, we have to consider both, and this is not a new > discussion. Until testing for DF23 gets underway with significant data > accumulated, I'd say, yes the jury is out. Beyond the discussion on the > forums we know nothing about it nor the voracity of the claims made > there. DF23 could be one of those which is geographically confined and > thus, yes, it may help in that regard but likely will not help in the > absence of other SNP the rest of M222 in other environs/locations. > > I think what we are going to find out about M222 is that as some have > suggested it extended farther afield than Ulster (Connaught, Donegal > eastward across the sea to Scotland. Just what if it did migrate into > both Ireland and Scotland and flourished because A) those environs were > basically the end of the road for these Celtic populations, and it > flourished there because of the rich environment and the fact that it > was somewhat a protected environment. Yes there were invasions and wars > but the coalescence was allowed due to environment. > > What if all three SNP (L21, DF 23, and M222) migrated in? Does > discovering them among the descendants of those populations there in the > here and now necessarily preclude that or are we witnessing the > flourishing of populations? I don't know the answers to all of that; no > one else does, and I mention it only because there is such a thing as > putting all the eggs in one basket and when they hatch we find a goose, > a chicken, and a duck among perhaps a bunch of others. Susan > > On 10/24/2011 3:00 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > > (pabloburns@comcast.net<mailto:pabloburns@comcast.net>) > > 2. Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations > > (pabloburns@comcast.net<mailto:pabloburns@comcast.net>) > > 3. Re: Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations (Sandy Paterson) > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >