A few days ago I posted a query on this forum about DF23 testing. DF23 is believed to be between L21 and M222, and therefore it should be very important to us in identifying the age of M222. I received no replies, so I am left wondering how many of us are even aware of it. A more important goal is to find a SNP that divides M222. This will not only help determine the age of it but also will help in pedigree determinations. Many researchers believe that M222 appeared in CE times and, being fairly young, there are no additional mutations. Bill Howard Mathematica program placed its age at about 1680 BC, but since L21 itself is thought to be only about 4000 years before present, and other SNPS below L21 and parallel to M222 have mutated several times (see http://compsec.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/121-draft6.png). It seems to me that there should be an additional mutation downstream of M222--if it is that old. After all, there are said to be at least 200 SNP mutations between any father and son, and although most will be on the other 22 chromosomes, surely in almost 4000 years one should have found its way to the Y one. I understand that only three or four M222s have been WTY tested, and no new SNPs were found. There may be other data bases I don't have access to (Family Finder??) Alberto Squecco keeps track of 23and Me testees, that is, those who send him their data. His M222 section at http://www.webalice.it/asquecco/Y_DNA-Forums.zip contains only 32 entries (the surnames are Wilson, Burns, Murphy, Quinn, Gorman, Young, Marin, Arrington Wells, McNut, Martin, McCalla, Burns, Byrne, Utah Bear (sic), Lally, Grierson, Grierson, Falk/Scott, Slaven, Taylor, McGonnigal, McGonnigal, McGonnigal, Mullin, Allen, Dunn, Roland, Millard, McLaughlin, McHugh, Moore, McGinley). The M222 mutation is at Squecco's position number 852 where an ancestral A mutated to derived G. I checked for a subsequent mutation downstream of that one, but one does not appear. Paul

Hi Paul Hi Paul Take a mutation rate of .0035 After 40 generations, you'd expected roughly (1 - .0035)^40 = .869 or 87% to be on modal. M222+ has about 90% on modal for both 67-marker haplotypes and 111-marker haplotypes. This makes it highly unlikely for it to be even 60 generations old (say 1800 years old), never mind 3800 odd years old. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net Sent: 22 October 2011 10:46 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations A few days ago I posted a query on this forum about DF23 testing. DF23 is believed to be between L21 and M222, and therefore it should be very important to us in identifying the age of M222. I received no replies, so I am left wondering how many of us are even aware of it. A more important goal is to find a SNP that divides M222. This will not only help determine the age of it but also will help in pedigree determinations. Many researchers believe that M222 appeared in CE times and, being fairly young, there are no additional mutations. Bill Howard Mathematica program placed its age at about 1680 BC, but since L21 itself is thought to be only about 4000 years before present, and other SNPS below L21 and parallel to M222 have mutated several times (see http://compsec.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/121-draft6.png). It seems to me that there should be an additional mutation downstream of M222--if it is that old. After all, there are said to be at least 200 SNP mutations between any father and son, and although most will be on the other 22 chromosomes, surely in almost 4000 years one should have found its way to the Y one. I understand that only three or four M222s have been WTY tested, and no new SNPs were found. There may be other data bases I don't have access to (Family Finder??) Alberto Squecco keeps track of 23and Me testees, that is, those who send him their data. His M222 section at http://www.webalice.it/asquecco/Y_DNA-Forums.zip contains only 32 entries (the surnames are Wilson, Burns, Murphy, Quinn, Gorman, Young, Marin, Arrington Wells, McNut, Martin, McCalla, Burns, Byrne, Utah Bear (sic), Lally, Grierson, Grierson, Falk/Scott, Slaven, Taylor, McGonnigal, McGonnigal, McGonnigal, Mullin, Allen, Dunn, Roland, Millard, McLaughlin, McHugh, Moore, McGinley). The M222 mutation is at Squecco's position number 852 where an ancestral A mutated to derived G. I checked for a subsequent mutation downstream of that one, but one does not appear. Paul R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message