Thanks for giving the subject some thought. My responses are as follows: 1) Re: Kellys and O'Maddens - The paper's conclusions are strictly focused on Larkins and primarily by sampling persons living in Ireland today. No conclusion was made on other Hy Many surnames. As you allude to, there do not seem to be many Madden DNA results published. Of the Kelly's, given the proliferation of the surname in Ireland, I'm not sure that those from Hy Many have been well sampled either, but I don't really now. On the contrary, the Egan's have a lot of DNA samples and a significant cadre of M222 in the Hy Many region, so that would be a 2nd surname data point in support of the M222-Maine Mor theory. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ClanEgan In general, I am not swayed by the Trinity spreadsheet as 1) it was done some time ago with a lot less markers and 2) it makes very coarse geographic references by province. As is pointed out in the paper, "a twenty mile arc from Kiltormer, County Galway touches 6 counties" and 3 provinces. Further, in my opinion, the definition of the Shannon River as a sharp dividing line is more of a 16th and 17th century concept of English occupation and does not reflect medieval territoriality very well. e.g. Diocese of Killaloe extends over the Shannon into Tipperary; likewise, Diocese of Clonfert extends into Lusmagh, Offaly; there are stories of monasteries on both sides of the Shannon river having close ties until the suppression. 2) I will try to get a better reference for you from An Leabhar Breac. Could you point me at a DNA study relating to the Collas that says they are not M222? 3) Re: Lorcains west of the Shannon by Morgan - There are lots of reference if one looks. a. O'Donovan put the name on his map there. b. As is pointed out in my paper, there is a 1585 reference to the name in Royal Patents. c. To this day, there are 4 townlands named "Lurgan ..." in east Galway. d. CE 1253 Melaghlin O'Lorcain tenant of de Burgo at Meelick Castle. e. CE 1318 Clan Lorchain listed along with O'Kelly's of Ui Maine as participating in the battle of Dysert O'Dea. f. Episcopal rentals in Clonfert Diocese in CE 1407 show Nemeas, son of Mahon O'Lorkan and a civil official in Clonfert. g. From AFM: Thomas OLorcan, Ollam to the O'Madden chieftan, died CE 1490. Most likely he lived at Brackloon Castle near Clonfert town. Thx, Brad

> From: btlarkin1@gmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 03:07:01 -0500 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Larkin DNA Project - Ancestral Parish Sampling on theShannon River > > In general, I am not swayed by the Trinity spreadsheet as 1) it was done > some time ago with a lot less markers and 2) it makes very coarse > geographic references by province. As is pointed out in the paper, "a > twenty mile arc from Kiltormer, County Galway touches 6 counties" and 3 > provinces. Further, in my opinion, the definition of the Shannon River as a > sharp dividing line is more of a 16th and 17th century concept of English > occupation and does not reflect medieval territoriality very well. e.g. > Diocese of Killaloe extends over the Shannon into Tipperary; likewise, > Diocese of Clonfert extends into Lusmagh, Offaly; there are stories of > monasteries on both sides of the Shannon river having close ties until the > suppression. > > Thx, > Brad > Brad, I doubt any of these divisions are of use. Munster I believe was shired around 1250, and I doubt the diocese boundaries tell us much about surnames or tribes either?If you have evidence otherwise I would be interested to hear it. Iain

> 3) Re: Lorcains west of the Shannon by Morgan - There are lots of reference > if one looks. > a. O'Donovan put the name on his map there. Was O’Donovan right to put the name on his map? And what time period is represented by the map? I am happy to assume M222+ O’Lorcain are to be found west of the Shannon. It’s just who are they, for they conflict DNA with the identified members O’Kelly and O’Madden of Ui Maine. > b. As is pointed out in my paper, there is a 1585 reference to the name in Royal Patents. As issue as above, it tells that the O’Lorcain where present in 16th century, but who are they? > c. To this day, there are 4 townlands named "Lurgan ..." in east Galway. Gives history to their presence, yet then where the townlands named? > d. CE 1253 Melaghlin O'Lorcain tenant of de Burgo at Meelick Castle. The O’Lorcain where present in Galway since 1253. However this is still after the Norman invasion and their displacement of people like the O’Lorcain lords of Caille Fallamhan. > e. CE 1318 Clan Lorchain listed along with O'Kelly's of Ui Maine as participating in the battle of Dysert O'Dea. According to the below reference Clan Lorchain were a sept of the MacNamara (though whether linked by blood would be another question). >From The History and Topography of the County of Clare by James Frost: “A list of Dermot’s followers is given by Mac Grath. A.D. 1317. List of the Septs of Thomond. In addition to those just mentioned, there came to his aid the O’Hehirs, the M’Graths, the O’Dubhduins, the MacGormans, and the following septs of the clan Culein (the MacNamaras), viz.—The MacInerneys, the clan Lorcain, the O’Claras, the clan Meanman (Mannions?), the clan Giolla Maoel, the O’Maoel Domhnaigh (O’Moloneys), the clan Alivaren (O’Hallorans), the clan Comhremaigh (O’Currys), the O’Slatterys, the O’Hassetts, the O’Malleys, the O’Hartigans, the O’Cindergains, the clan Aillie (O’Haleys), the O’Conways (Conduibh), and the O’Meehans: then came the M‘Mahons, of Corcabaskin, under the command of Donogh, son of Rory, son of Rory; the O’Lynches, and the O’Kellys (Caolaidhe), of Galway; the MacRegans, the clan Mahowna, the O’Griffeys, the O’Howards (Muinter Iomhair), and the MacEncroes (Mac Con Cros) of Inagh; the O’Galvins (Muinter Chealbhain), the O’Liddys, the O’Doyles, the O’Kellihers, the O’Cuiníns (Cuneens), and the O’Gerans.” > f. Episcopal rentals in Clonfert Diocese in CE 1407 show Nemeas, son of Mahon O'Lorkan and a civil official in Clonfert. Useful for history of the O'Lorcain, however we haven’t pushed the O’Lorcain presence before 1253 (from d above). > g. From AFM: Thomas OLorcan, Ollam to the O'Madden chieftan, died CE 1490. Most likely he lived at Brackloon Castle near Clonfert town. Many of the professionals of Connacht claimed to be Southern Ui Neill, so they is no family requirement between the O’Lorcan and his patron. I find this earlier entry (below) interesting for it is pre-Norman conquest. The Ua Lorcain are accompanying the high king, the Ua Conchobuir - Ui Briuin king of Connacht. Suggesting the Ua Locain was an important local power, most likely in Connacht. The two other names families named in the rearguard action, the Ua Eidhin and Ua Flaithbertaigh, were member of M222+ kindred, I wonder if the M222+ O’Lorcain are related to the Connachta? CS1121, A plundering army was led by Tairdelbach ua Conchobuir into Mumu and they caused great terror to Caisel and plundered Ard Finain. The rear of the army was attacked as it was moving south and there was killed there Aed ua Eidhin, king of Uí Fhiachrach, and Muiredach ua Flaithbertaigh, king of West Connacht [i.e. Uí Briúin Seóla], and Muirgius ua Lorcáin and others. A great encampment by Tairdelbach ua Conchobuir and Leth Cuinn at Birra from Samain to the feast of Brigit, and they divided Desmumu between the descendants of Carthach and the descendants of Briain.