Hi Paul I thought your e-mail was clear, and I interpreted it the way you've set out below. What I was getting at is that M222+ is highly unlikely to be much more than about 50 generations 'old' and that it is therefore possible that any SNP's downstream of M222 may be classified as 'private' by whoever makes these decisions. To clarify a point though, I don't think it's correct to say that mutation rates are random. It's the mutation process that is random, not the rates of mutation. For example, the outcome of a single toss of an unbiased coin is random, but the rate of turning up 'heads' is known to be 0.5 I nevertheless agree with your thoughts that it may be useful to know more about DF23 and whether there are separate DF23+,M222+ and DF23+,M222- populations. I suppose we can hope that there is some M222+ in the Faroe Islands, although it's not clear to me whether their full-genome plans extend to Y-SNP's. Even if it does, it seems that about 87% of the male population is of Scandinavian origin, so it may lead nowhere in furthering our understanding of M222. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pabloburns@comcast.net Sent: 23 October 2011 09:35 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Back to the Basics-M222 and Related Mutations Sandy, I don't know much about mutation rates, which I thought were random. That "Dubhthach" chart I sent the list shows many mutations downstream of L21 that do not seem to have mutated at all, some that have mutated once more, and one (L625)that is seven steps away from L21. Obviously, we have much yet to discover. What I was trying to say (but upon rereading my message I see I did not do well) was that testing DF23 will help determine the origins--geographical and in time--of M222. Being upstream from M222, DF23 must have divided into those who are DF23+ and M222+, and those who are DF23+ but M222-. If a focal point of the latter is determined, that MAY (stress the "may")be where the M222 mutation occurred. Paul