Hi Sandy, I admin the McCamish/McAmis/McCarmish/McKemmish project. Results here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/McAmis/default.aspx?section=yresults It has two groupings: A large group around Banbridge area of County Down who often spell the name McCOmish. We got a fellow on the project. M222 but no close relationship to descendants of three brothers who left for America about 1770. We tested several American cousins to make sure we had their siggie and not an NPE. Eventually we found a 67 marker match with an Australian man who had an excellent paper trail to a man born in Tyrone in the early 1800s. We had to do a LOT of genealogy to find this guy, as he was not interested in genealogy. We knew about his ancestor, since I'd researched the surname in Ireland. He was part of a smaller grouping who tended to live in the old barony of Dungannon. Parts of which are in Tyrone and some in Derry. So we assume our lads came from that area. They use the same first names as well, so they were the ones I was betting on all along. A number of other McCamish lines migrated to Australia in the 1800s, one via Scotland. You see them in the Scots censuses, but they're Irish born. There was also, in the very early 1600s, a pod of them in Clones, Monaghan, but they seem to have disappeared. It's possible they moved to Down, but there is other evidence of a group who used the name BE (Before the English). I can't say surname, because as most of you know, Ulster Irish didn't use English-style inheritable surnames till forced to, much like the Welsh and Scots and the southern Irish. For Ulster Irish the Plantation is often mentioned -- early 1600s, but frankly, many areas, especially central Ulster, remained unattractive to British settlers and military (not good farming-land; full of Irish). Then they were run out or killed in the Rising in 1641. Most British surnames in the area do not go back before the mid 1600s, when a few new people arrived to replace the dead ones. Due to the depositions and the attempts to prosecute those who rebelled I suspect few struggled to retain any surname that some Englishman had pegged on him before the Rising. People tended to use clan-names, but in an area where most everyone is an O'Neill or one of their allied clans, that's rather like the Scottish fisher villages where everyone ended up named "John Fisher" (story told in the front essay of Black "Surnames of Scotland). Useless. So people adopted other surnames, but I suspect after 1650. IN fact Bell "Surnames of Ulster" says the Irish in some locales were still not using fixed surnames in 1900. So those who think surnames will sort out the DNA are not going to get too far into the past in Ulster. I have evidence of a name that could be McCamish (spelling was real bad back then too <girn>), in central Tyrone, living on lands that had originally been granted to the descendants of the O'Cahan chiefs at the time of the Rising. He was a cowman for Tristan Beresford, a local landlord. Another one declined to do jury duty in Derry in 1621 and was fined. These were both clearly Irish guys: the one was accused of being 'out' in the Rising. The earlier dude was living in a place and time where there were not living Scots. Derry was an English colony and in 1621, not much of one at all. His first name was something like Murtagh. The McCamish DNA often matches or nearly matches other locals -- you got them in your email. They're all Irish central Ulster surnames. Given that this was the heart of the O'Neill kingdom (Dungannon), you're looking at loyal O'Neill clansman, I suspect, trying to extend their lives spans by not alerting the local government to their clan identity. I did a fair amount of research on the name, including the published Parliamentary Papers. They actually have a LOT of Irish names as many of the military reports sent to Queen Lizzie, King Jamie, and Charlie (before his head came off), were sent to Parliament and recorded. There was also some thought that the McCamishes might be McCormicks. So far I've not found a clan of McCormicks that they match. I would like to test a McCormick from Inishowen, because some thought they originated there (though perhaps this individual was faery-struck!), where it is known one clan remained after the O'Donnells took over. Moville area. When we started out no one matched the McCamishes, but now there are any number who do. The one common denominator is central Ulster. We also linked an earlier migration of McCamishes to central Pennsylvania (in situ by 1751) to the Tyrone McCamishes through DNA. The three brothers seem to have arrived about 1770. Had a family member return two years ago and I created an O'Neill tour for him of the three capitals, etc, etc. The big house of the estate where the erstwhile relative lived in the early 1800s is now a hotel, so he got to stay there. House is more recent, though. If anyone has an interest in the tour locations, let me know and I'll send it on. We could also organize a 'real' tour for next summer if enough were interested. I know a tour agent who would probably be able to arrange it. The US McCamishes assimilated into the "Scotch Irish" and believed their ancestors were Ulster Scots. However the name is not used in Scotland, except occasionally by Stewarts and McGregors (I have a list), whose DNA doesn't match. The leaders of Clan Gunn, up there in Pictland in Northeastern Scotland, used "McCamish", but they were broken in the 1400s by other highland clans. And it was Pictland -- not a lot of M222 there. No matches. They might have matches on the Isle of Mann, where the surname was used. It was once an Irish colony, so I would suspect they'd be Irish of some stripe. Haven't found any to test. In the case of McCamish/McKemmish, we have a 67 marker match to a descendant of a man who lived in Tyrone in the early 1800s. Other research supports this. So it, at least, is native to the area. Linda Merle Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:09:53 +0100 From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Hi Walter No, I haven't leapt anywhere. But this list is interesting : >> Brown Cannon Carnes Carroll Cawthon Coyne (2) Creegan Daugherty Folan Gilmore Golden Graham Heflin Holt Hughes Kanary Kennedy Lawson MacAulay MacKenzie Manley Mawhorter McAdams McCall McGrath McKemmish McLaughlin (2) Munnelly Neel Queen Quinn Rice Sinclair Soakell Taylor Thrasher Towey Whitehead Wilson Yakes Young which, of course, doesn't prove anything except that it is likely that we are not English. Include 37 marker matches (excluding the duplicates who tested to 67) and the list becomes increasingly Celtic. >> I recently acquired a copy of Black's book 'The Surnames of Scotland'. Most of the above surnames are in the book (that doesn't mean they originated in Scotland, merely that they are found there). Also, Black mentions a Robert Fremansone, burgess of Jeddeworthe, 1296 (Bain II, p 197). Jeddeworthe is in Co Lanark, Scotland. Sandy

Very interesting - thanks. You may already be aware of this, and so too maybe are the Grierson/Milligan researchers, but just in case, there is a close match between McAmis 62770 and Milliken 23702. I make it a GD of 5 over 67 markers, with 4 off-modal matches. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: 20 October 2011 19:50 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches Hi Sandy, I admin the McCamish/McAmis/McCarmish/McKemmish project. Results here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/McAmis/default.aspx?section=yresults It has two groupings: A large group around Banbridge area of County Down who often spell the name McCOmish. We got a fellow on the project. M222 but no close relationship to descendants of three brothers who left for America about 1770. We tested several American cousins to make sure we had their siggie and not an NPE. Eventually we found a 67 marker match with an Australian man who had an excellent paper trail to a man born in Tyrone in the early 1800s. We had to do a LOT of genealogy to find this guy, as he was not interested in genealogy. We knew about his ancestor, since I'd researched the surname in Ireland. He was part of a smaller grouping who tended to live in the old barony of Dungannon. Parts of which are in Tyrone and some in Derry. So we assume our lads came from that area. They use the same first names as well, so they were the ones I was betting on all along. A number of other McCamish lines migrated to Australia in the 1800s, one via Scotland. You see them in the Scots censuses, but they're Irish born. There was also, in the very early 1600s, a pod of them in Clones, Monaghan, but they seem to have disappeared. It's possible they moved to Down, but there is other evidence of a group who used the name BE (Before the English). I can't say surname, because as most of you know, Ulster Irish didn't use English-style inheritable surnames till forced to, much like the Welsh and Scots and the southern Irish. For Ulster Irish the Plantation is often mentioned -- early 1600s, but frankly, many areas, especially central Ulster, remained unattractive to British settlers and military (not good farming-land; full of Irish). Then they were run out or killed in the Rising in 1641. Most British surnames in the area do not go back before the mid 1600s, when a few new people arrived to replace the dead ones. Due to the depositions and the attempts to prosecute those who rebelled I suspect few struggled to retain any surname that some Englishman had pegged on him before the Rising. People ten! ded to use clan-names, but in an area where most everyone is an O'Neill or one of their allied clans, that's rather like the Scottish fisher villages where everyone ended up named "John Fisher" (story told in the front essay of Black "Surnames of Scotland). Useless. So people adopted other surnames, but I suspect after 1650. IN fact Bell "Surnames of Ulster" says the Irish in some locales were still not using fixed surnames in 1900. So those who think surnames will sort out the DNA are not going to get too far into the past in Ulster. I have evidence of a name that could be McCamish (spelling was real bad back then too <girn>), in central Tyrone, living on lands that had originally been granted to the descendants of the O'Cahan chiefs at the time of the Rising. He was a cowman for Tristan Beresford, a local landlord. Another one declined to do jury duty in Derry in 1621 and was fined. These were both clearly Irish guys: the one was accused of being 'out' in the Rising. The earlier dude was living in a place and time where there were not living Scots. Derry was an English colony and in 1621, not much of one at all. His first name was something like Murtagh. The McCamish DNA often matches or nearly matches other locals -- you got them in your email. They're all Irish central Ulster surnames. Given that this was the heart of the O'Neill kingdom (Dungannon), you're looking at loyal O'Neill clansman, I suspect, trying to extend their lives spans by not alerting the local government to their clan identity. I did a fair amount of research on the name, including the published Parliamentary Papers. They actually have a LOT of Irish names as many of the military reports sent to Queen Lizzie, King Jamie, and Charlie (before his head came off), were sent to Parliament and recorded. There was also some thought that the McCamishes might be McCormicks. So far I've not found a clan of McCormicks that they match. I would like to test a McCormick from Inishowen, because some thought they originated there (though perhaps this individual was faery-struck!), where it is known one clan remained after the O'Donnells took over. Moville area. When we started out no one matched the McCamishes, but now there are any number who do. The one common denominator is central Ulster. We also linked an earlier migration of McCamishes to central Pennsylvania (in situ by 1751) to the Tyrone McCamishes through DNA. The three brothers seem to have arrived about 1770. Had a family member return two years ago and I created an O'Neill tour for him of the three capitals, etc, etc. The big house of the estate where the erstwhile relative lived in the early 1800s is now a hotel, so he got to stay there. House is more recent, though. If anyone has an interest in the tour locations, let me know and I'll send it on. We could also organize a 'real' tour for next summer if enough were interested. I know a tour agent who would probably be able to arrange it. The US McCamishes assimilated into the "Scotch Irish" and believed their ancestors were Ulster Scots. However the name is not used in Scotland, except occasionally by Stewarts and McGregors (I have a list), whose DNA doesn't match. The leaders of Clan Gunn, up there in Pictland in Northeastern Scotland, used "McCamish", but they were broken in the 1400s by other highland clans. And it was Pictland -- not a lot of M222 there. No matches. They might have matches on the Isle of Mann, where the surname was used. It was once an Irish colony, so I would suspect they'd be Irish of some stripe. Haven't found any to test. In the case of McCamish/McKemmish, we have a 67 marker match to a descendant of a man who lived in Tyrone in the early 1800s. Other research supports this. So it, at least, is native to the area. Linda Merle Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:09:53 +0100 From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 off modal matches To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Hi Walter No, I haven't leapt anywhere. But this list is interesting : >> Brown Cannon Carnes Carroll Cawthon Coyne (2) Creegan Daugherty Folan Gilmore Golden Graham Heflin Holt Hughes Kanary Kennedy Lawson MacAulay MacKenzie Manley Mawhorter McAdams McCall McGrath McKemmish McLaughlin (2) Munnelly Neel Queen Quinn Rice Sinclair Soakell Taylor Thrasher Towey Whitehead Wilson Yakes Young which, of course, doesn't prove anything except that it is likely that we are not English. Include 37 marker matches (excluding the duplicates who tested to 67) and the list becomes increasingly Celtic. >> I recently acquired a copy of Black's book 'The Surnames of Scotland'. Most of the above surnames are in the book (that doesn't mean they originated in Scotland, merely that they are found there). Also, Black mentions a Robert Fremansone, burgess of Jeddeworthe, 1296 (Bain II, p 197). Jeddeworthe is in Co Lanark, Scotland. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message