Hi Paul, They are not equivalent. It was my whole genome that led to the discovery of 11 new SNPs downstream of M222+. Another Scotsman's whole genome led to the discovery of 13 new SNPs downstream of M222. This information comes from Jim Wilson, a PhD and a Fellow of the Royal Society. Best, Sandy -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Ó Du??aig Sent: 30 October 2013 09:16 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [R-M222] Chromo2 order ?? Phylogenetically they are "equivalent", this is the term used by ISOGG for two or more separate SNP's that mark the one branch. Basically until a S661+/S658- or a S658+/S661- man is found the two are regarded as functionally equivalent for purposes of the haplogroup tree. As an example, DF41 is equivalent to CTS2501, all DF41+ men tested so far have come back as CTS2501+, likewise all CTS2501+ men we have found (through Geno 2.0 testing) have likewise tested as DF41+. The two are indeed separate SNP's but are regarded "equivalent" when it comes to defining: *R1b1a2a1a2c1i* L21 has a similar position with regards to L459 and Z290. Going by what we know from Chromo2 it would seem that there are at least 24 snp's "equivalent to" M222. >From my original email, I should have put DF85 in Parentheses eg. "S673 (DF85)" -- DF85 been just a different name for the same SNP. Just like how ScotlandsDNA call DF41: S524 -- same SNP just different name. As you note in case of S661/S658 and S660/S659 they are indeed 4 separate snp's, but they only mark two levels in the phylogeny. Of course if enough people do Chromo2 tests we may end up separating each of these from each other. -Paul (DF41+) On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Alexander Paterson < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Just a clarification. > > > S661 > S658 > S660 > S659 > S588 > S7814 > S603 > S595 > S592 > S673/DF85 (you are probably negative for this one) > S668 (you are probably negative for this as it's subclade of DF85) > S568 > S567 > > S661 is not equivalent to S658. > S660 is not equivalent to S659. > > They are four separate mutations downstream of M222. > > There are a total of 27 SNPs downstream of M222. I alone have 11 SNPs > downstream of M222. > A Scotsman has 13 SNPs downstream of M222. > There are three more. > > All 27 were discovered by ScotlandsDNA. > > Best, > > Sandy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Ó Du??aig > Sent: 29 October 2013 16:07 > To: Helen Murphy; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Chromo2 order ?? > > Helen, > > Chromo2 is a chip based test from ScotlandsDNA/IrelandsDNA/EnglandsDNA. > They've included several SNP's that help sub-divide M222. One of these > SNP's is DF85 which you probably have seen talk about on the list. From > looking at your matches in the Ireland project it's probable that your > husband is DF85-. > > The advantage for you in taking a Chromo2 test is that it would test you > for the following SNP's under M222: > S661/S658 > S660/S659 > S588 > S7814 > S603 > S595 > S592 > S673/DF85 (you are probably negative for this one) > S668 (you are probably negative for this as it's subclade of DF85) > S568 > S567 > > Here's a phylogenetic tree that shows the current known structure of these > SNP's under M222: (maintained by Iain Kennedy) > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > If you come back positive on any of those SNP's it would at least "tie" > your husband down to a particular part of wider M222 "tree". > > Regards > -Paul > (DF41+) > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Helen Murphy <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I administer my husband Dave Murphy kit #201315 at ftDNA - he is R-M222 - > > I have done his markers up to 111 & his autosomal at Family Finder. What > is > > Chromo2 ? and should I order it for him? He is full Irish, his grand > > parents & gr-gr came from Galway, Mayo, Cork, & Waterford. Please > advise... > > > > Helen Murphy - [email protected] > > > > PS: I am #128128 on ftDNA - with Reynolds line in Virginia > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Sandy > They are not equivalent. It was my whole genome that led to the discovery of > 11 new SNPs downstream of M222+. Am I correct that below you have S661, S658, S660, S659, S588, S603, S595, S590, S592, S597, S598. > Another Scotsman's whole genome led to the > discovery of 13 new SNPs downstream of M222. > However there is now a un-named Scotsman with more identified SNPs under M222 than you? Does he have two private SNPs beyond S592 or a different line of SNPs? Thanks.
Sandy, there is a difference between a Royal Society University Research Fellow, which Jim Wilson is, and a Fellow of the Royal Society - Fellows of the Royal Society get to add FRS behind their names. David H MacLennan FRS On 2013-10-30 8:44 AM, "Alexander Paterson" <[email protected]> wrote: >Hi Paul, > >They are not equivalent. It was my whole genome that led to the discovery >of >11 new SNPs downstream of M222+. Another Scotsman's whole genome led to >the >discovery of 13 new SNPs downstream of M222. > >This information comes from Jim Wilson, a PhD and a Fellow of the Royal >Society. > >Best, > >Sandy > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Ó Du??aig >Sent: 30 October 2013 09:16 >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [R-M222] Chromo2 order ?? > >Phylogenetically they are "equivalent", this is the term used by ISOGG for >two or more separate SNP's that mark the one branch. Basically until a >S661+/S658- or a S658+/S661- man is found the two are regarded as >functionally equivalent for purposes of the haplogroup tree. As an >example, >DF41 is equivalent to CTS2501, all DF41+ men tested so far have come back >as CTS2501+, likewise all CTS2501+ men we have found (through Geno 2.0 >testing) have likewise tested as DF41+. The two are indeed separate SNP's >but are regarded "equivalent" when it comes to defining: *R1b1a2a1a2c1i* > >L21 has a similar position with regards to L459 and Z290. Going by what we >know from Chromo2 it would seem that there are at least 24 snp's >"equivalent to" M222. > >>From my original email, I should have put DF85 in Parentheses eg. "S673 >(DF85)" -- DF85 been just a different name for the same SNP. Just like how >ScotlandsDNA call DF41: S524 -- same SNP just different name. > >As you note in case of S661/S658 and S660/S659 they are indeed >4 separate snp's, but they only mark two levels in the phylogeny. Of >course >if enough people do Chromo2 tests we may end up separating each of these >from each other. > >-Paul >(DF41+) > > >On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Alexander Paterson < >[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Paul, >> >> Just a clarification. >> >> >> S661 >> S658 >> S660 >> S659 >> S588 >> S7814 >> S603 >> S595 >> S592 >> S673/DF85 (you are probably negative for this one) >> S668 (you are probably negative for this as it's subclade of DF85) >> S568 >> S567 >> >> S661 is not equivalent to S658. >> S660 is not equivalent to S659. >> >> They are four separate mutations downstream of M222. >> >> There are a total of 27 SNPs downstream of M222. I alone have 11 SNPs >> downstream of M222. >> A Scotsman has 13 SNPs downstream of M222. >> There are three more. >> >> All 27 were discovered by ScotlandsDNA. >> >> Best, >> >> Sandy >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Ó Du??aig >> Sent: 29 October 2013 16:07 >> To: Helen Murphy; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Chromo2 order ?? >> >> Helen, >> >> Chromo2 is a chip based test from ScotlandsDNA/IrelandsDNA/EnglandsDNA. >> They've included several SNP's that help sub-divide M222. One of these >> SNP's is DF85 which you probably have seen talk about on the list. From >> looking at your matches in the Ireland project it's probable that your >> husband is DF85-. >> >> The advantage for you in taking a Chromo2 test is that it would test you >> for the following SNP's under M222: >> S661/S658 >> S660/S659 >> S588 >> S7814 >> S603 >> S595 >> S592 >> S673/DF85 (you are probably negative for this one) >> S668 (you are probably negative for this as it's subclade of DF85) >> S568 >> S567 >> >> Here's a phylogenetic tree that shows the current known structure of >>these >> SNP's under M222: (maintained by Iain Kennedy) >> http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf >> >> If you come back positive on any of those SNP's it would at least "tie" >> your husband down to a particular part of wider M222 "tree". >> >> Regards >> -Paul >> (DF41+) >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Helen Murphy <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > I administer my husband Dave Murphy kit #201315 at ftDNA - he is >>R-M222 >- >> > I have done his markers up to 111 & his autosomal at Family Finder. >>What >> is >> > Chromo2 ? and should I order it for him? He is full Irish, his grand >> > parents & gr-gr came from Galway, Mayo, Cork, & Waterford. Please >> advise... >> > >> > Helen Murphy - [email protected] >> > >> > PS: I am #128128 on ftDNA - with Reynolds line in Virginia >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message