It could be a valid conjecture, Robert. The question is, of course, if the sweet spot is pertinent here--that is, just what is it for DYS 460 within the different sub-clades of R-M222, and which repeat value (either 11 or 12) most closely represents what the sweet spot is. I mention the M222+ sub-clades. They are not fully defined yet, but we now know that they exist, and there well may be haplotype differences among them. We do not yet know. Also of interest in your observation is the "modal" business. Your remarks are IMO important to illustrate that modals are indeed a constructed haplotype based on majority rule averages of the results tested in addition to the fact that a modal can and will change as more results are added. Do not misunderstand me, modals are useful; however we often misunderstand their utility and what they actually represent. Additionally, as clearly noted previously, within these O'D results, there are + and - df85 men all who fall within both the M222+ modal and the O'D modal values. It is the combination of testing, assessment, historical information and well documented genealogies in combination which will bring us the best clarity we may achieve...and at that there are aspects of all of this which will remain theoretical and perhaps unknown or without demonstration. Susan Hedeen On 11/25/2013 11:08 AM, Robert Doherty wrote: > The Doherty modal (that John McLaughlin posted) matches the O'Niall modal except at three STRs. > > DYS458 Doherty = 18, O'Niall = 17 > DYS460 Doherty = 12, O'Niall = 11 > YCAII Doherty = 19-22, O'Niall = 19-23 > > Among the Doherty Surname Group participants in subgroup 1 (those who are M222 and have a Doherty surname - all variants), there are an equal number who have DYS460 = 11 and DYS460 = 12. Therefore the modal for this subgroup swings back and forth as participants are added to this sub group. > > Currently more M222 Dohertys have DYS460 = 11 than DYS460 = 12. But this may switch when the next M222 Doherty participant joins. > > While this may be not the same as the "sweet spot" concept where the STR value for an individual family line mutates back to a specific value, it seems this group is behaving this way. > > Bob Doherty > Sent from my iPad > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >