Paul We are probably not far away in thinking. I have read some of the archaeological studies relating to Ireland and I have read up on the Connachta. You will be aware of the Cath Maige Mucrama or the battle of Mag Mucrime? This piece of mythology formed part of the Cycle of Kings and is believed to have been written as early as the 9th century with the earliest copy preserved in the Book of Leinster. I presume this is one of the Connachta tales you refer to? The context of this tale although set in Ireland had Lugaid Mac Con seeking out help from the king of Alba or Scots. There is one passage in it that refers to the Alba, and the coast of the Saxons and the Britons. To me, this tale was probably written at a time or at least when it was still remembered the Scots held what is referred to as Dal Riata in southern Argyllshire, the Britons of the old king of Al Clut (destroyed by the Norse), a kingdom later called Strathclyde, and the Saxons of Northumbria who occupied parts of south Ayrshire, Galloway and Dumfriesshire. In the tale, Lugaid brought an army from the land of the Scots and met his opponent in battle in the plain of Mag Mucrime in Connacht. Your example of Tuathal is a good example of an invasion and conquest that took the Midlands of Ireland and does raise the question about where he came from in Northern Britain. I have a copy of O'Rahilly's Earl Irish History and Mythology and he has a chapter devoted to Tuathal Teachtmar. I note his comment about the Goidel, "the learned authors of that elaborate fiction, the invasion of the Sons of Mil, and the genealogy-makers who collaborated with them, were animated by the desire to invest the Goidelic occupation of Ireland with an antiquity to which it was entitled neither in fact or tradition; for only in this way would it be feasible to provide a Goidelic descent for tribes of non-Goidelic origin, and to unify the divergent ethnic elements in the country by tracing them back to a common ancestor. Hence popular traditions concerning the Goidelic invaders had, before being admitted into the literature, to undergo some modification in order to make them harmonize with the new-fangled theory that Goedels had come to Ireland at a very remote period under the leader of the Sons of Mil. The genuine tradition concerning Tuathal told how he had led ancestors of the Midland Goidels to Ireland, and how he had overcome the non-Goidelic tribes who had hitherto ruled the country, and who henceforth were to be vassals of the Goidels". O'Rahilly also mentions another very interesting tradition in another chapter, which comes out of Connacht, 'the Fir Bolg of Connacht is recorded by Mac Liac in a poem in the dindshenchas of Carn Conaill. The people of Umor, under their king Oengus mac Umior, came from the 'land of the Cruithn' (i.e. Scotland) to Cairbre Nia Fer, who permitted them to settle on the lands of Brega, around Tara. Owing, however, to an intolerable tax which Cairbre imposed on them, they quitted these lands and journed westwards to Connacht'. The text has been fully translated and is on the Corpus of Electronic Texts. So here we have two very interesting connections with Connacht, one that directly connects the land of the Scots and the other through Tuathal said to be the ancestor of the Ui Neill and Connachta dynasties through his grandson Conn of the Hundred Battles. >From this perspective, I certainly agree with you, Northern Britain was an important migration pathway into the Northern half of Ireland and into Connacht. The Irish Annals certainly endorse that from almost the beginning of recorded history, there were close ties between southern Argyllshire and the descendents of Tuathal Teachtmar, the Ui Neill. For example, in or about AD 568 we read of an expedition by Colman Bec son of Diarmait, king of Tara, and Conaill son of Comgaill, king of the Coru Reti, later Dal Riata, into Iardoman possibly the Hebrides. Alan In a message dated 16/11/2013 13:44:07 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Alan, It's worth noting that the Connachta (Dál Cuinn) mythology talks about movement back and fro from Northern Britain. Particulary in the case of Tuathal Teachtmar. What's evident from archaelogy is that Ireland underwent a darkage from about 800-200BC. After 200BC we see influence creeping in from Northern Britain, but into the Northern half of Ireland. This kinda corresponds to the quasi-historical division of Ireland into two halves. Namely "Leath Cuinn" (Conn's half) and "Leath Mugh" (Mugh Nuadhat's half eg. Eoghain Mór of the Eoghanachta) http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg -Paul (DF41+) On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 1:23 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > David > > This must be one of those rare moments when you openly come out on this > forum and say what your thinking, and that is good thing, as people need > to > hear what is on mind of the Administrators of this forum. > > And - it is good to hear you are one of those people who thinks the odds > are better than 50-50 that M222 first appeared in Scotland. Since, I have > been working on the origins for sometime, could you indicate why you think > it > is better and what it is, as I have shared something privately with a few > others? > > You also make a statement "or Strathclyde, then moved to Ireland and > flourished before returning a few centuries later in some measure to what > we now > call Scotland". Who is saying it came from Strathclyde? Is it with > reference to that report published not that long ago, in which it was > claimed the > Milligan/Grierson DNA was connected to the Domnonii, regarded as being > ancestral to the old kingdom of Strathclyde. > > In the report a Map used by the late Nora Chadwick in 1971 was employed to > depict the boundaries of the Domnonii, which today with hindsight most > modern historians would not use, as the boundaries extend too far south > into > the territory of the Novantae and Selgovae, who occupied what is now > Galloway and Dumfriesshire during the Roman occupation of Britain. The > same can > also be said for Dr. Brian Skye's map, which is on the M222 Project, which > wrongly places southern Argyllshire in Strathclyde. Argyllshire was never > part > of Strathclyde. > > If James Wilson has found SNPs above the so call 'Niall', this is going to > re-write history. > > Alan > > > In a message dated 15/11/2013 20:57:14 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] > writes: > > Iain, I had to laugh at that. I wonder what could be learned from the > McKenzie who is even more modal than I am. > > My sample got to the lab only about a month ago, so I'm probably not going > to hear for another few weeks where I will be slotted. I'm hoping for news > by the end of the month, but who knows. > > I told Jim Wilson that I guessed I would be in the M222* paragroup or > maybe in S568. I am one of those who thinks the odds are better than > 50-50 that > M222 first appeared in Scotland or Strathclyde, then moved to Ireland and > flourished before returning a few centuries later in some measure to what > we now call Scotland. Then of course a couple of centuries after that the > original stay-at-home M222 Scots picked up and moved to Ulster when it made > sense for them to do so. That's when I'm guessing that my Wilson ancestors > parked themselves in the Bann River Valley. I don't see any evidence they > were in Ireland before the mid-17th century, though of course a lusty > Irish > lad may have been a patrilineal ancestor rather than one of the sober, > dour > Scots Wilsons who came to that green isle with their wives and daughters. > > Anyway, that's my hypothetical narrative of the moment. We'll see what the > SNPs say soon enough. > > Needless to say, I'm not persuaded by the "It all started in Mayo" school > of thought, but I'm persuadable if further evidence piles up that points > in > that direction. > > David Wilson > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message