Hey, Mike, I've a quick question... To preface, we have 20 odd SNPs which are being assessed as equivalents, but do we actually know this yet? The testing pool among them for this assessment is yet quite small. It will grow as Chromo2 results from testing continues. It is going to be an interesting journey...and we may proclaim early on that "yes, it looks like they are equivalent" On the other hand the testing may reveal something unknown to us. And beyond the preliminary estimates for df85 ages, we don't have ages on the rest yet. There could have been a bottleneck. This theme has been bantered around for quite awhile. There are evidences of a couple of fairly significant plagues which extended for more than just a few years that hit France, England, parts of Scotland and Ireland fairly significantly. Couple those with the reported climate down turn about that time which affected the trees and undoubtedly crops and subsequently wild life and live stock causing subsequent food shortages and resulting sickness and disease in addition to also the normal things that affect lineages such as daughters only, etc, and it looks like it could have been the case. The question is then, where were the proliferating downstream SNP bearers at the time of this bottleneck? So far the largest clade divider, df 85+, may affect only 25% of the population, is thus far aging out at not much younger than gross M222 estimates, and Jim represents that several of the SNPs seem (based on the low numbers leading into this assessment) "enriched with Scots" which leads into the reality that the brearers were not on the same Isle. We do not yet know fully what the distribution of any of them are yet . He also mentions England as showing evidence of possibly the start point. Clearly, all of the 20 odd SNPs also are R-M222, but they all do not have + with each other which indicates proliferation and the speculative bottleneck timing of the 500's CE when this climate down turn and these devastating plagues were known to have occurred.doesn't quite jive. Looking forward to the discussions on this. Susan Hedeen Susan Hedeen On 11/27/2013 5:07 PM, Mike W wrote: > It might be good not to think of M222 as the "boss man" but as the "lucky > man". M222 was the lucky SNP to be discovered first. The whole idea of > phylogenetic equivalence is that every M222+ tested so far is positive for > all 20 some odd equivalents, and every many M222- person so far as been > negative for all. We can't tell which SNP is oldest or youngest. We just > stumbled upon M222 first. > > Actually, a side thought is that the true "lucky man" is the Most Recent > Common Ancestors (MRCA) for M222 and its equivalents. Those 20 some > equivalents mean there was a long line of generations where everyone died > out, save one, the MRCA "lucky man". His lineage did something right to > survive during that long bottleneck, before he became extremely prolific. > > Regards, > Mike > > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Alexander Paterson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> Thanks. That makes some sense, but I would re-phrase slightly. My guess is >> that 'phylogenetically equivalent' means that they are part of the same >> tree, but further downstream'. So the boss man is M222 and the rest are >> also >> M222, but with other mutations downstream of M222. >> >> Best, >> >> Sandy >> > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >