I agree, revisiting these groups is warranted. I'm glad you mentioned the question that Barbara brought to me as the one thing separating the cousins is a mutation at DYS 439 where 1 of them mutated 11 rather than a 12 at 439; and because there was evidence in project of that 11 repeat mutation, they were separated and grouped accordingly. This is why, and I know that I've harped on it, the genealogical information is necessary to qualify any assessment of lineages for analyses. Without it what we have are the haplotypes alone with their quirky mutations. With them we see where and can assess possibly what branch of a lineage and sometimes what generation that mutation occurred. I also am very encouraged that men of this project are pursuing the SNP testing by various means...BISDNA Chromo2, FTDNA BigY, and the single SNP options now available to us by only FTDNA. As Thomas Krahn's new enterprise gets up and running we will have an alternative go to place at less expense (at least presently) for those single SNP options. Susan Hedeen On 11/25/2013 10:26 AM, Robert Doherty wrote: >> On 11/22/2013 5:30 PM, Malcolm McClure wrote: >> However, I am bothered about the influence of reverse mutations on >> ancestral projections and comparisons. We need widespread sampling of >> several related generations to establish the importance of this >> possible effect, but those data are unlikely to become available for >> many years, if not generations. > In the Doherty Surname group we have two fairly well documented groups of fathers, brothers, cousins and uncles who have up to a 5 pr 6 GD mismatch among them. There are not only mutations between an uncle and nephews, but also between the two groups. Yet the two groups have been able to verify that they are indeed cousins. Barbara Andrews, who leads the research for one group had Susan Hedeen analyze the matches and her analysis initially indicated that the other line (Carleen Doherty's) and her line aren't as closely tied as some of the other matches. > > Maybe this should be revisited. Since it seems more cousins are being added to this group (i.e. Doherty participant kit 301205 has just joined the the Doherty Surname group). > > Bob Doherty > Sent from my iPad > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >