David This must be one of those rare moments when you openly come out on this forum and say what your thinking, and that is good thing, as people need to hear what is on mind of the Administrators of this forum. And - it is good to hear you are one of those people who thinks the odds are better than 50-50 that M222 first appeared in Scotland. Since, I have been working on the origins for sometime, could you indicate why you think it is better and what it is, as I have shared something privately with a few others? You also make a statement "or Strathclyde, then moved to Ireland and flourished before returning a few centuries later in some measure to what we now call Scotland". Who is saying it came from Strathclyde? Is it with reference to that report published not that long ago, in which it was claimed the Milligan/Grierson DNA was connected to the Domnonii, regarded as being ancestral to the old kingdom of Strathclyde. In the report a Map used by the late Nora Chadwick in 1971 was employed to depict the boundaries of the Domnonii, which today with hindsight most modern historians would not use, as the boundaries extend too far south into the territory of the Novantae and Selgovae, who occupied what is now Galloway and Dumfriesshire during the Roman occupation of Britain. The same can also be said for Dr. Brian Skye's map, which is on the M222 Project, which wrongly places southern Argyllshire in Strathclyde. Argyllshire was never part of Strathclyde. If James Wilson has found SNPs above the so call 'Niall', this is going to re-write history. Alan In a message dated 15/11/2013 20:57:14 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Iain, I had to laugh at that. I wonder what could be learned from the McKenzie who is even more modal than I am. My sample got to the lab only about a month ago, so I'm probably not going to hear for another few weeks where I will be slotted. I'm hoping for news by the end of the month, but who knows. I told Jim Wilson that I guessed I would be in the M222* paragroup or maybe in S568. I am one of those who thinks the odds are better than 50-50 that M222 first appeared in Scotland or Strathclyde, then moved to Ireland and flourished before returning a few centuries later in some measure to what we now call Scotland. Then of course a couple of centuries after that the original stay-at-home M222 Scots picked up and moved to Ulster when it made sense for them to do so. That's when I'm guessing that my Wilson ancestors parked themselves in the Bann River Valley. I don't see any evidence they were in Ireland before the mid-17th century, though of course a lusty Irish lad may have been a patrilineal ancestor rather than one of the sober, dour Scots Wilsons who came to that green isle with their wives and daughters. Anyway, that's my hypothetical narrative of the moment. We'll see what the SNPs say soon enough. Needless to say, I'm not persuaded by the "It all started in Mayo" school of thought, but I'm persuadable if further evidence piles up that points in that direction. David Wilson

Alan, It's worth noting that the Connachta (Dál Cuinn) mythology talks about movement back and fro from Northern Britain. Particulary in the case of Tuathal Teachtmar. What's evident from archaelogy is that Ireland underwent a darkage from about 800-200BC. After 200BC we see influence creeping in from Northern Britain, but into the Northern half of Ireland. This kinda corresponds to the quasi-historical division of Ireland into two halves. Namely "Leath Cuinn" (Conn's half) and "Leath Mugh" (Mugh Nuadhat's half eg. Eoghain Mór of the Eoghanachta) http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg -Paul (DF41+) On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 1:23 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > David > > This must be one of those rare moments when you openly come out on this > forum and say what your thinking, and that is good thing, as people need > to > hear what is on mind of the Administrators of this forum. > > And - it is good to hear you are one of those people who thinks the odds > are better than 50-50 that M222 first appeared in Scotland. Since, I have > been working on the origins for sometime, could you indicate why you think > it > is better and what it is, as I have shared something privately with a few > others? > > You also make a statement "or Strathclyde, then moved to Ireland and > flourished before returning a few centuries later in some measure to what > we now > call Scotland". Who is saying it came from Strathclyde? Is it with > reference to that report published not that long ago, in which it was > claimed the > Milligan/Grierson DNA was connected to the Domnonii, regarded as being > ancestral to the old kingdom of Strathclyde. > > In the report a Map used by the late Nora Chadwick in 1971 was employed to > depict the boundaries of the Domnonii, which today with hindsight most > modern historians would not use, as the boundaries extend too far south > into > the territory of the Novantae and Selgovae, who occupied what is now > Galloway and Dumfriesshire during the Roman occupation of Britain. The > same can > also be said for Dr. Brian Skye's map, which is on the M222 Project, which > wrongly places southern Argyllshire in Strathclyde. Argyllshire was never > part > of Strathclyde. > > If James Wilson has found SNPs above the so call 'Niall', this is going to > re-write history. > > Alan > > > In a message dated 15/11/2013 20:57:14 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] > writes: > > Iain, I had to laugh at that. I wonder what could be learned from the > McKenzie who is even more modal than I am. > > My sample got to the lab only about a month ago, so I'm probably not going > to hear for another few weeks where I will be slotted. I'm hoping for news > by the end of the month, but who knows. > > I told Jim Wilson that I guessed I would be in the M222* paragroup or > maybe in S568. I am one of those who thinks the odds are better than > 50-50 that > M222 first appeared in Scotland or Strathclyde, then moved to Ireland and > flourished before returning a few centuries later in some measure to what > we now call Scotland. Then of course a couple of centuries after that the > original stay-at-home M222 Scots picked up and moved to Ulster when it made > sense for them to do so. That's when I'm guessing that my Wilson ancestors > parked themselves in the Bann River Valley. I don't see any evidence they > were in Ireland before the mid-17th century, though of course a lusty > Irish > lad may have been a patrilineal ancestor rather than one of the sober, > dour > Scots Wilsons who came to that green isle with their wives and daughters. > > Anyway, that's my hypothetical narrative of the moment. We'll see what the > SNPs say soon enough. > > Needless to say, I'm not persuaded by the "It all started in Mayo" school > of thought, but I'm persuadable if further evidence piles up that points > in > that direction. > > David Wilson > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >