In a message dated 11/6/2011 9:29:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: Well, in a study such as what I'm suggesting, we aren't looking to establish or refute relatedness. What we are looking for is diversity, and that diversity will show through mutation. The further away from the modal, speculatively, the more diverse. I put an .xls file online showing genetic distance from the modal for every member of the M222 project. This was generated by a function in the admin GAP pages using a McKenzie (an exact match to the M222 modal) as a reference point. Markers used were 37. The most distant in the project is now a Burgess at 14 from the modal. As I note in the file however there is no SNP test for this sample and it's somewhat off modal so it may not be M222. Next up is a Brennan at 13 (M222+) followed by three at 12, two of whom are M222+. The Conroy sample is no longer in the project but in a similar file of a few years ago came in at 15. If there are non M222 samples in the project you surely cannot detect it via genetic distance. clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222GD.xls There are only a few large related clusters in the project. Doherty, McLaughlin, Cowan, Dunbar, Burns or Byrnes, Ewings. There are a few smaller clusters of three or more including Grierson, Milligan, Wilson. Any one wishes can get genetic distance from other sources and add the names to the file. Some of these clusters appear at different genetic distances. Cowans for example have clusters at 3, 4,5, 6. I haven't yet checked to see why this is so. As a cluster of three or more, the Ewings are the most distant in the group at 8,9,10. They are followed by Fergusons and Griersons at 8. A few members of our McLaughin of Donegal cluster also appear at 8,9, although the center of the group is at 6. The Dohertys also have various small and large clusters. In Bill Howard's phylogenetic charts based on RCC, the Howles clustered with the Dohertys, McLaughlins, McGonagles and a few other NW Irish septs. One can read the same thing into these genetic distance clusters. In both versions the Ewings consistently are more distant from the modal than any other large cluster.. The very last sample however would be Conroy were he still in the project. His family is from Ireland as far back as they remember. The next to last name is Brennan, apparently also Irish. The sample labeled O'Doherty at 6 lies in the center of the main Doherty cluster. It's the DNA of the brother of the current O Dochartaigh chief of sept, descended from Sir Cahir O'Doherty, slain in 1608. I'm not sure I can read much into genetic distance against the M222 modal. Samples, Scottish and Irish, seem to be scattered all over the place. There might be a better way of measuring diversity. I also pulled down all the M222 samples from the Clan McDonald DNA project. This includes a lot of different surnames, not just McDonalds. The clan society thinks they are somehow from Ireland, citing gallowglass affiliations and even Colla Uais. There seems to be almost no evidence of a common descent in this group except for a few samples and those are mainly close by virtue of being close to the M222 modal with few off modal markers. I might throw this online as well if I get a chance. John

[In both versions the Ewings consistently are more distant from the modal than any other large cluster..] Over 111-markers the Ewings are actually below average in GD from modal. Not by much, but below average nonetheless. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 07 November 2011 06:45 To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Irish/Scottish M222 geographical spread study In a message dated 11/6/2011 9:29:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: Well, in a study such as what I'm suggesting, we aren't looking to establish or refute relatedness. What we are looking for is diversity, and that diversity will show through mutation. The further away from the modal, speculatively, the more diverse. I put an .xls file online showing genetic distance from the modal for every member of the M222 project. This was generated by a function in the admin GAP pages using a McKenzie (an exact match to the M222 modal) as a reference point. Markers used were 37. The most distant in the project is now a Burgess at 14 from the modal. As I note in the file however there is no SNP test for this sample and it's somewhat off modal so it may not be M222. Next up is a Brennan at 13 (M222+) followed by three at 12, two of whom are M222+. The Conroy sample is no longer in the project but in a similar file of a few years ago came in at 15. If there are non M222 samples in the project you surely cannot detect it via genetic distance. clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222GD.xls There are only a few large related clusters in the project. Doherty, McLaughlin, Cowan, Dunbar, Burns or Byrnes, Ewings. There are a few smaller clusters of three or more including Grierson, Milligan, Wilson. Any one wishes can get genetic distance from other sources and add the names to the file. Some of these clusters appear at different genetic distances. Cowans for example have clusters at 3, 4,5, 6. I haven't yet checked to see why this is so. As a cluster of three or more, the Ewings are the most distant in the group at 8,9,10. They are followed by Fergusons and Griersons at 8. A few members of our McLaughin of Donegal cluster also appear at 8,9, although the center of the group is at 6. The Dohertys also have various small and large clusters. In Bill Howard's phylogenetic charts based on RCC, the Howles clustered with the Dohertys, McLaughlins, McGonagles and a few other NW Irish septs. One can read the same thing into these genetic distance clusters. In both versions the Ewings consistently are more distant from the modal than any other large cluster.. The very last sample however would be Conroy were he still in the project. His family is from Ireland as far back as they remember. The next to last name is Brennan, apparently also Irish. The sample labeled O'Doherty at 6 lies in the center of the main Doherty cluster. It's the DNA of the brother of the current O Dochartaigh chief of sept, descended from Sir Cahir O'Doherty, slain in 1608. I'm not sure I can read much into genetic distance against the M222 modal. Samples, Scottish and Irish, seem to be scattered all over the place. There might be a better way of measuring diversity. I also pulled down all the M222 samples from the Clan McDonald DNA project. This includes a lot of different surnames, not just McDonalds. The clan society thinks they are somehow from Ireland, citing gallowglass affiliations and even Colla Uais. There seems to be almost no evidence of a common descent in this group except for a few samples and those are mainly close by virtue of being close to the M222 modal with few off modal markers. I might throw this online as well if I get a chance. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message